[Jeff Leser]

Arturo

Thank you for the information/leads.

Another question. My interest in the evolution of Italian military formations/units during the war has expanded beyond my focus on A.S. What other books should I look for that discuss the organizations/changes in units during the war for al front? The Ceva/Curami Meccanizzazione volumes are lacking in this respect.

Thanks!

Jeff

[arturolorioli]

Jeff Leser, on 18 February 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Another question. My interest in the evolution of Italian military formations/units during the war has expanded beyond my focus on A.S. What other books should I look for that discuss the organizations/changes in units during the war for al front? The Ceva/Curami Meccanizzazione volumes are lacking in this respect.

Alas, just sparse references here and there. The Mod.43 Infantry Division, beside the changes in the Inf.Rgts organization, were expected to have the following differences from the old Mod.40 divisions:

* A NEC (Nucleo Esplorante Celere - Fast Recon Unit), with:
- HQ
- Armoured cars squadron, with:
-- HQ (1 AB.41 a/c)
-- 2 x armoured cars platoons (4 AB.41 each)
-- 1 x motorcycle platoon
- Cavalry squadron, with :
-- 3 x cavalry platoons
-- 1 x cavalry MMG platoon (3 weapons)
- Anti-Tank squadron, with :
-- 2 x Anti-Tank platoons (2 Sem. L.40 47/32 each)

* A divisional Self-Propelled AT Bn, with:
- HQ (2 x Sem.Command Vehicles and 2 x Sem.M42 75/34)
- 2 x SPAT companies (6 x Sem.M42 75/34)

* A divisional towed AT bn, with German PaK40 75/43 (2 btys with 4 guns each)

* Two Regimental Self-Propelled AT companies, with:
- HQ (1 x Sem.M42 75/34)
- 3 x SPAT platoons (2 x Sem.M42 75/34)

* A mixed AA/AT Bn, with:
- HQ
2 x 90/53 Autoportato batteries (4 guns each)
2 x 20/65 Autoportato batteries (4 guns each)

* Each divisional field artillery bn was expected to add an AA section (2 x 20/65)

* The divisional artillery rgt was supposed to have 2 x 100mm and 2 x 75mm bns

Much wishfull thinking, as quite simply there wasn't even remotely the availability of the necessary hardware. In real terms, just an handfull of units did got *part* of this attachments.

[madmike]

arturolorioli, on 19 February 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

.

Arturo, some questions:

- the Two Regimental Self-Propelled AT companies, doesn't appears in the TO& E of Pignato as before. I don't think that a regimental SFAT company will be in the OOB of an infantry regiment. Or not?

- as you wrote, there will be TWO at btg, one of self propelled guns, one of towed guns. Is the double than the German ID of 1944. It seems a lot of guns...

- The division, was still a binary division?

[arturolorioli]

madmike, on 20 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

the Two Regimental Self-Propelled AT companies, doesn't appears in the TO& E of Pignato as before. I don't think that a regimental SFAT company will be in the OOB of an infantry regiment. Or not?

I'm rather positive that they were planned, but IIRC the Sassari was the only one to got them, and they were Sem.M41 75/18. But I'm going on memory here, will have to check.

madmike, on 20 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

- as you wrote, there will be TWO at btg, one of self propelled guns, one of towed guns. Is the double than the German ID of 1944. It seems a lot of guns...

There were also a lot of Allies tanks ;-) As I wrote, the full range of proposed mofìdification for the Mod.43 TO&E was largely a dreamlist to start with.

madmike, on 20 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

- The division, was still a binary division?

Yes they were. It is remarkable that - after 3 years of war - no need was percieved for a "triangular" division. I suppose that speaks volumes about the claim that the binary divisions were a major cause of the italian WW2 weakness, a claim that I've never agreed with.

[arturolorioli]

arturolorioli, on 20 February 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

I'm rather positive that they were planned, but IIRC the Sassari was the only one to got them, and they were Sem.M41 75/18. But I'm going on memory here, will have to check.

Checked, I confirm that the Sassari got Sem.M42 75/18 (not M41) both for the Divisional HQ Bn and for the two Regimental AT coys..

The Pasubio, Sabauda and Aosta eportedly got the full complement (probably of M42 75/34), the Calabria *perhaps* did got one battery for the AT Bn and one of the Regimental coy (but I doubt), the Assietta, Bari and Napoli were expected to get from October 1943, and of course got none.

The NEC (Nuclei Esloranti Celeri) of the Sassari, Pasubio, Sabauda and Aosta did got AB.41, the Calabria and Assietta got possibly AB43, the Bari perhaps a single platoon, while the Napoli was supposed to get them in October.

The Bari did got a towed PAK.40 AT bn, another 7 bns were reportedly formed but I do not know if and where they were assigned.

The Assietta, Granatieri di Sardegna, Livorno, Mantova, Piave, Piceno, Piacenza, Legnano, Lupi di Toscana and Rovigo got the 2 x 100mm and 2 x 75mm field artillery bns. The Sabauda had 2 x 100mm and 1 x 75mm, the Sassari and Taro 1 x 100mm and 3 x 75mm.

I have no clue about what field Artillery bn (if any) got the 20mm AA sections

IIRC only the Piave got the mixed AA bn (90/53 and 20/65)

All is rather tentative, as the official data stops at June 1943, for the last months before the armistice we do have the *planned* allocations only.

ATTENTION : I have added a few correction to previous message with the list of the planned enhanchements for the Mod.43 Inf.Div.

[arturolorioli]

A further quick search.

arturolorioli, on 20 February 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

The Bari did got a towed PAK.40 AT bn, another 7 bns were reportedly formed but I do not know if and where they were assigned.

On June 16th 1943 the Assietta, Aosta, Calabria and Sabauda are listed as waiting to get a PAK.40 bn too.

arturolorioli, on 20 February 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

IIRC only the Piave got the mixed AA bn (90/53 and 20/65)

The Cosseria had one too (I think towed, not Autoportato). The Sabauda, Bari and Brennero had 75/46 AA bns.

[Jeff Leser]

Excellent information. This is an interesting discussion on the Mod 43 division. I am putting together a list of books to add to my library on this subject (for a furture article).

N.Pignato, "Le armi della fanteria italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale", Albertelli 1978

Pignato\Cappellano, "Il regio Esercito alla vigilia dell' 8 settembre 1943"

Any others I should look for?

Arturo

What is the source for the all the information on the Mod 43 in post starting with

Quote

Alas, just sparse references here and there. The Mod.43 Infantry Division, beside the changes in the Inf.Rgts organization, were expected to have the following differences from the old Mod.40 divisions:

Is it the "Le armi della fanteria" or other sources?

Where did you find all the fielding data (when and what units received/planned to receive)?

Thanks!

Jeff

[arturolorioli]

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

This is an interesting discussion on the Mod 43 division. I am putting together a list of books to add to my library on this subject (for a furture article)

Let me know if I can help. It would be nice to work toghter with you

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

N.Pignato, "Le armi della fanteria italiana nella seconda guerra mondiale", Albertelli 1978
Pignato\Cappellano, "Il regio Esercito alla vigilia dell' 8 settembre 1943"

Neither are great books, and the references to the Mod.43 divisions in both cases are a small paragraph for the first, and a couple of lines for the second.

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

What is the source for the all the information on the Mod 43 in post starting with

As I said, sparse references, gathered in the years. Honesty I do not know where from, in most cases, but I've run a quick check and have found other references as follows:

About the NEC, a list of the activated ones (at least ther armoured component) is in L.Ceva - A.Curami "La Meccanizzazione dell'Esercito fino al 1943" (Vol.I, page 488). A NEC TO&E is in N.Pignato "Motori!!!!" (pag.25).

About the PAK.40 bn, F.Cappellano "Le Artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale" (pag.265, note 34 at page 267, listing at page 55). Page 55 is also the source for the 2 x 100mm bns and for some of the 90/53 and 75/46 bns.

A reference to the mixed 90/53 - 20/65 Autoportato bn of the Piave is in N,Pignato - F.Cappellano "Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano" (Vol.II, page 493). The reference that all Mod43 were expected to get an heavy AA Arty bn was *IIRC* somewhere in C.Geloso "Storia dell'Artiglieria Italiana" Vol.XV or XVI (the last volumes of the Montù series), but will have to check (over 2000 badly indexed pages!!!).

For the 20mm/40mm sections pf the Field Arty Bns, I just do not remember, will check (half sure it's in Cappellano Book, somewhere).

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Where did you find all the fielding data (when and what units received/planned to receive)?

An article by N.Pignato "Politica e Produzione dei Mezzi Corazzati in Italia '40-'45" published on RID magazine (March 1989)

[Jeff Leser]

Arturo

Thanks for the sources. It appears as a collection of many bits and pieces. The genesis of great research!

Quote

This is an interesting discussion on the Mod 43 division. I am putting together a list of books to add to my library on this subject (for a furture article)

Let me know if I can help. It would be nice to work toghter with you

Let us talk about this. I would certainly welcome the possibility of working together. I will e-mail some ideas tonight. I am thinking big.

Pista!

Jeff

[arturolorioli]

arturolorioli, on 22 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The reference that all Mod43 were expected to get an heavy AA Arty bn was *IIRC* somewhere in C.Geloso "Storia dell'Artiglieria Italiana" Vol.XV or XVI (the last volumes of the Montù series), but will have to check (over 2000 badly indexed pages!!!).

Fortunately there is a reference also in F.Cappellano/N.Pignato "Il Regio Esercito alla vigilia dell' 8 settembre 1943", page 73. Hours of search saved ;-)

[arturolorioli]

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Thanks for the sources. It appears as a collection of many bits and pieces. The genesis of great research!

... or just the hopeless search for reliable infos about the WW2 Italians

Jeff Leser, on 22 February 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Let us talk about this. I would certainly welcome the possibility of working together. I will e-mail some ideas tonight. I am thinking big.

Is there any other way to think?

[arturolorioli]

arturolorioli, on 22 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

For the 20mm/40mm sections pf the Field Arty Bns, I just do not remember, will check

OK, found it, one section (2 guns) fer each 75mm and 100mm artillery battalion (not battery! my mistake), F. Cappellano "Le Artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Sconda Guerra Mondiale" (page 35). The same source (page 34) confirms 4 field arty bns per division