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Article On Tipo A.s.

#1 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:37 PM

I have just posted my article on the divisione tipo A.S. here on Comando Supremo.

Tipo A.S.

I am sure there are mistakes, so please read throught it. I ask that any corrections/comments be provided with a source/cite.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#2 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:01 AM

Thanks. Will try to have time do check it.
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#3 User is offline   arturolorioli 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:19 PM

View PostJeff Leser, on 23 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I am sure there are mistakes, so please read throught it. I ask that any corrections/comments be provided with a source/cite.


Looks like a *very* nice job, congratulations (and no surprise, what else but excellence could be expected from our erudite Jeff? ;) ).
Will look at the details tonigh, so far just a quick spelling check :

(comando di dvisione): = comando di divisione
Quartier General (Quartermaster General) = Quartier Generale
gruppo fucile = Gruppo fucilieri
gruppo fucile mitragliatori = Gruppo fucili mitragliatori
mitragliatori (heavy machinegun) = Mitraglieri
(btg. carri legere) = Carri leggeri
(cp. motorciclisti) = Cp.Motociclisti
3 Plotoni moto = plotoni motociclisti
1 Plotone moto = plotone motomitraglieri
Divisional Depot Battalion (btg. complementi) = better Divisional replacements Bn.
Communications Battalion (btg. collegamenti) = better Signal Bn
Corps Sustainment Detachment (nucleo di sezione sussistenza per corpo armata) a bit odd, “nucleo” and “sezione” are usually different levels.
Divisione occupazione: ... Pistola. : Pistoia
Mixed Engineer Battalion (btg. misto del genio)
btg. armi controcarro ed accompagnmento divisione)= divisionale
Comando Superiore Forzes Armata A.S.= Forze Armate
One Obstacle/ Barrier (pl. di arresto) Platoon; = would translate as combat engineers
Assault Gun Battalion (btg. semoventi da 47/32) = would translate as SP Anti tank

Some mis-spellings are repeated more than onces (cut-and-paste legacies ...) so check trough the whole document.
Aighe-va

Arturo F.Lorioli
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#4 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:27 PM

Arturo

Thanks for the first look. I await your more detailed comments.

Yes part was sloppy cutting and pasting. Part was going back and forth on whether to exclusively use Italian terms or English terms. In the end there is a mix of both and the article needs to be cleaned up.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#5 User is offline   david 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:10 PM

Jeff.

Great work with the article. I have just looked at Divisione Fanteria Tipo AS40.

One comment, the Divisional Machinegun Battalion (btg. mitraglieri) you have on 6x Compagnia, I thought that it was 4. But I have no idea why. Can you confirm 6?

The 2x M/C Compagnia that were listed in the Divisional assets, and the Btg Carri (L). Do you know in reality how often these units were really present, as i was not even aware of them before.

Thanks in advance,

David.
Cheers; Dave.

#6 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:20 PM

Arturo

I have inputted your corrections on typing/spelling. Thanks!

Nucleo and sezione. I am using my military experience here. Sezione (section) normally means a small unit or element of something larger. There is normally a TO&E (tabelle Organiche) and it is standard.

Nucleo (detachment) is more 'ad hoc' in the sense that the unit was given what it needed, but what it was given isn't a standard unit/element by TO&E. The corps in A.S. where not standard when compared to Italy. So I took nucleo to mean put together with what it needed, but none of the parts/elements are 'standard'. In the phrase, maybe it should be translated as Detachement of sustain sections for a army corps.

BTW, I forgot to look-up/translate sezione bonifica. What is it?

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#7 User is offline   arturolorioli 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostJeff Leser, on 24 January 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Nucleo and sezione.... maybe it should be translated as Detachement of sustain sections for a army corps.


Could you give me the original italian title of the unit /and/or the reference page, if it's form an Historical Office book)?

View PostJeff Leser, on 24 January 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

BTW, I forgot to look-up/translate sezione bonifica. What is it?


Decontamination section (chemical corps)
Aighe-va

Arturo F.Lorioli
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#8 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:03 PM

Quote

Corpo d'Armata tipo A.S.

Comando di Corpo d'Armata

3 DIVISIONI FANTERIA AUTOTRASPORTABILI TIPO A.S.

Battaglione Carri Leggeri (eventuale)

Compagnia Bersaglieri Motociclisti

Raggruppamento Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata

-Reparto Comando

-2 Gruppi Cannoni da 105/28

-Gruppo Obici da 100/17

-Gruppo Cannoni da 75/27

-Gruppo Controaerei da 75/27 C.K.

-2 Batterie Controaeree da 20/65

-Reparto Specialisti di Artiglieria

-Reparto Munizioni e Viveri

Raggruppamento Genio di Corpo d'Armata

-Battaglione Genio Artieri

-Battaglione Telegrafisti e Radiotelegrafisti

-Compagnia Genio Fotoelettricisti

Compagnia Chimica

Servizi di Corpo d'Armata

-Sezione Sanità

-3 Ospedali da Campo

-3 Nuclei Chirurgici

-Ambulamza Radiologica

-Ambulanza Odontoiatrica

-Sezione Disinfezione

-Sezione Bonifica

-Sezione Sussistenza

-Sezione Panettieri

-Autogruppo


http://xoomer.virgil...andi_unita.html


Corps Artillery Group (raggamento di artilieri) it is Raggruppamento Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata

Battaglione Genio Artieri not Battaglione Special Artieri
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#9 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:05 PM

David

Thanks!

RE: btg. mitraglieri. The short answer is no. The btg. mtr. in the divisone binaria as organized in 1937 had three companies. (l’esercito italiano tra la 1° e la 2° guerra Mondiale page 125 fn 1). This btg. was dropped in the final 1938 divisione binaria design. As the A.S. divisions were raised in 1937 and kept their mtr., I used the three companies. I don't have any other information that clearly states three companies. Four could be correct, but I am not certain. I will need to note this in the article.

RE: 2x MC. The [2] is the footnote number. There is only one cp. in the division. I have always assumed that the numbered bersaglieri cp. mc. listed in the 1940 OOBs are these units. There are a number of them and IIRC, their numbering is in the 60-63 range (same as the four original A.S. divisions). I have not as yet delved into the mc, but it has been on the to-do list. I am not aware of any non-bersaglieri MC combat units in the army.

RE: carri leggeri. These are the light tank battalions running all over A.S. in 1940. They were pulled from the divisions and formed into ad hoc units. Note the numbering of these battalions match the divisions. The divisions established in 1937-38 all had their btg. (LX - Sabratha; LXI – Sirte; LXII – Marmarica; LXIII – Cirene). I am pretty sure that the divisions sent from Italy in late 1939 and the Catanzaro (formed in 1940) never received a battalion.

Arturo

RE: Cite. I will post it tonight.

RE: Translation. Thank you.

From this discussion, I need to separate the original four divisions from the ones sent in 1939.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#10 User is offline   arturolorioli 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:09 PM

View Postdavid, on 24 January 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

The 2x M/C Compagnia that were listed in the Divisional assets, and the Btg Carri (L). Do you know in reality how often these units were really present, as i was not even aware of them before.


IIRC there was just one bersaglieri m/c coy per division, numbered as the division
like the divisional L tanks bn (so 60th, 61st, 62nd and 63rd Bersaglieri m/c coys and LX, LXI, LXII and LXIII "L" tanks bns).

Possibly the confusion arises from the Sirte division, that had both its 61st Bersaglieri m/c coy and (at least for a while) the 22nd Bers. m/c coy (a Corps asset). Possibly the other three Corps m/c coys were at times attached to the divisions too?.

There were also similar Corps assets (IV, XXI and XXII "L" tanks bns, 22nd, 201st, 202nd and 203rd Bersaglieri m/c coys, etc)

The units could serve with the parent division or detached. For example one bersaglieri m/c coy was with Maletti, three formed a provisional bersaglieri m/c bn for the Brigata Coazzata Speciale (60th, 201st and 202nd coys) etc.
Aighe-va

Arturo F.Lorioli
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#11 User is offline   david 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:28 PM

Quote

RE: 2x MC. The [2] is the footnote number. There is only one cp. in the division.


Confusion! The 2 M/c Compagnia I was refering to are 1) The one in the Division, and 2) the one in the Btg Carri (L).

I was asking if in reality both were present in all Divisions & all Btg Carri (L) in N.A in 1940.

Hope that clears things up.


Jeff, re 3 or 4 Compagnia Mitraglieri; would the total number of men in the Btg give us the answer? I undesrstand that it was 640.
Cheers; Dave.

#12 User is offline   arturolorioli 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:38 PM

View Postdavid, on 24 January 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

The 2 M/c Compagnia I was refering to are 1) The one in the Division, and 2) the one in the Btg Carri (L).


An m/c coy as part of the "L" tanks bns? That's really new to me.
Aighe-va

Arturo F.Lorioli
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#13 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:38 PM

I have that the AS40 MG Battalion was supposed to have 6 compagnies HMG but ended with less.

Relevant thread: Machine Guns in AS divsions
http://www.comandosu...n-as-divisions/
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#14 User is offline   david 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:51 PM

Hats off to Jeff! :)

Thia article has sparked more discussion than I have seen on this forum for several years.
Thanks to ALL contributers! :)
Cheers; Dave.

#15 User is offline   david 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:44 PM

Quote

An m/c coy as part of the "L" tanks bns? That's really new to me.



Me too, but Jeff lista it in the article.
Cheers; Dave.

#16 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:36 PM

David

RE: MC and carri L. Ahhh, I think I see the issue. If you are referring to the carri L in the 1940 organization and the MC right below it, they are two different units. Main units are in Bold. There isn't a space between main unit header and sub units.

The carri L and the MC are both in bold and have a space between them. Two separate units.

Arturo

Quote

Could you give me the original italian title of the unit /and/or the reference page, if it's form an Historical Office book)?


The original is "1 nucleo di sezione sussistenze per corpo armata" from allegato 33 in Seconda offensiva britannica in A.S.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#17 User is offline   david 

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:41 AM

Jeff.
I see what you mean now. My mistake.

Regarding the Divisione Sabratha, would the only difference between it, and the Occupazione description be the fact that Sabratha only had two Battaglione per Regiment?

Regarding the Bersaglieri M/C Battaglione in 1940, were they just 3x Compagnia, or were there extra men & weapons present too?
Cheers; Dave.

#18 User is offline   arturolorioli 

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:05 AM

View PostJeff Leser, on 24 January 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

"1 nucleo di sezione sussistenze per corpo armata"


OK, then it should means something like "detachment, Corps Supply Section", i.e. a single nucleo (generic small unit) drawn from a Supply Section.

I suppose it's sussistenzA (with a final "A")
Aighe-va

Arturo F.Lorioli
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#19 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:08 PM

Dili

Thanks for the correction on the spelling.

RE: Corpo in Libia. I have looked the link you provided. The main problem I have with the inforamtion is the source for the data is not cited. The units that the website provides but the book doesn't is less a problem as it is filling a gap of information. The one issue is the Gruppo Obici da 100/17. This is missing from the USSME book and it is a unit that the USSME likely wouldn't overlook. The question for me is whether the howitzers should be there as part of the corps design or whether they were in addition (or do the OBs show them as present). I will need to check the 1940 OBs to see if the group was actually present in all four corps.

Quote

Battaglione Genio Artieri not Battaglione Special Artieri


The USSME book uses Battaglione Special Artieri. For me, the problem is whether these corps headquarters were truly 'official and standard' or whether they where still considered 'unique and ad hoc' in nature. What I mean is that they appear to be very 'hand crafted' and not standardized.

The machinegun battalion is a quandry. The USSME book gives the total HMG as 232. The machinegun breakdown indicates that the battalion must have 6 companies. I would really like to have documentation, but the 232 total might be all I have to base the organization upon.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini Monte Cervino (reenacted)
19 reggimento fanteria Brescia (reenacted)

#20 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:07 PM

View PostJeff Leser, on 25 January 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Dili

Thanks for the correction on the spelling.

RE: Corpo in Libia. I have looked the link you provided. The main problem I have with the inforamtion is the source for the data is not cited. The units that the website provides but the book doesn't is less a problem as it is filling a gap of information. The one issue is the Gruppo Obici da 100/17. This is missing from the USSME book and it is a unit that the USSME likely wouldn't overlook. The question for me is whether the howitzers should be there as part of the corps design or whether they were in addition (or do the OBs show them as present). I will need to check the 1940 OBs to see if the group was actually present in all four corps.



The USSME book uses Battaglione Special Artieri. For me, the problem is whether these corps headquarters were truly 'official and standard' or whether they where still considered 'unique and ad hoc' in nature. What I mean is that they appear to be very 'hand crafted' and not standardized.

The machinegun battalion is a quandry. The USSME book gives the total HMG as 232. The machinegun breakdown indicates that the battalion must have 6 companies. I would really like to have documentation, but the 232 total might be all I have to base the organization upon.

Pista!

Jeff


10 and 22 had a 100/17 . Yeah it is an issue he doesn't list sources.

I have found that a Btg Speciale Artieri was supposed to be in a certain Corpo d'Armata Libico but the link i provided here doesn't list Speciale for the others http://www.comandosu...nio-at-10jun40/ anyway doesn't have a source either.
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