Trento & Trieste

Posted 21 April 2011 by David
Guys, I can't see any Solothurns or 47mm A.T.G on the T.o&E of the Battaglione Motorizzato of Divisions Like Trento or Trieste in either the AS 40 or AS 42 designations.
There are of course some 47/32 in their Battaglione Armi Accom' but no Solothurn that I can see.
Am I mistaken? Would they have had some in the regular Battaglione?

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Posted 21 April 2011 by Dili
I would say the solothurns were deployed to infantry fuciliere, but i have never saw them listed as a part of TOE - i mean who operated them -. I am also curious about that.

Some quotes i have maybe from this own forum:

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later in 1940 100 solothurn are distributed of 2 per battalion

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To each infantry company of Divisione di Fanteria tipo AS-42 "Brescia", "Pavia", "Bologna", "Sabratha" and of Divisione Motorizzata "Trento" and "Trieste" was assigned one AT platoon with 25 mm AT guns and one AT platoon with 20 mm Solothurn or Breda mod 35. The 1a Armata in Tunisia (Mareth line) on february 1943 had 36 25/72 guns.

For GGFF i have this
Quote
2 Fuciliere Bn, Each: 3 Fuciliere Co, each with 3 plt( in total Both Bn had 27 LMG and 15 ATR solothurn.

From my data the biggest ATR unit seems to be the company with 12-15 ATR, the first number makes possible to have 2 ATR to each of 6 battalions fuciliere of a typical Division since i don't think the company operated as a whole unit. Now when in Africa the regiments changed to 2Bn fuciliere+Bn AA.CC i don't know what happened.

I have also 15 ATR listed in some Divisions like Ariete, the GGFF above.

and a company of 8 solothurns (maybe missing a part of unit since part of if was sunk) in Cavalry Regiment Lodi in Tunisia.

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Posted 21 April 2011 by David
Thanks for the information regarding the Solothurns. What about the 47/32 c.c. Any ideas?

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Posted 02 May 2011 by Montbrun
As of the AS42 Organization, the Rifle Companies of the Infantry, Motorized Infantry, and Bersaglieri units in North Africa had the following organization:

Compagnia Fanteria
--Squadra Comando – 1 x Captain, 1 x NCO, 9 x EM
----Transport – 4 x Cars, 3 x Heavy Trucks, 7 x EM Drivers
--Plotone Fucilieri
----Comando – 1 x Jumior Officer, 1 x EM
----Squadra Fucilieri – 1 x NCO, 2 x Senior EM, 8 x EM, 2 x LMG
----Squadra Fucilieri – 1 x NCO, 2 x Senior EM, 8 x EM, 2 x LMG
----Squadra Fucilieri – 1 x NCO, 2 x Senior EM, 8 x EM, 2 x LMG
--Plotone Mitraglieri
----Comando – 1 x Jumior Officer, 1 x EM
----Squadra Mitraglieri – 1 x NCO, 1 x Senior EM, 5 x EM, 1 x HMG
----Squadra Mitraglieri – 1 x NCO, 1 x Senior EM, 5 x EM, 1 x HMG
----Squadra Mitraglieri – 1 x NCO, 1 x Senior EM, 5 x EM, 1 x HMG
--Plotone c.c. da 20 o 25
----Comando – 1 x Jumior Officer, 2 x EM
----Squadra Controcarro – 1 x NCO, 6 x EM, 1 x 20mm Solothurn ATR or 25mm ATG (Captured French)
----Squadra Controcarro – 1 x NCO, 6 x EM, 1 x 20mm Solothurn ATR or 25mm ATG (Captured French)
----Squadra Controcarro – 1 x NCO, 6 x EM, 1 x 20mm Solothurn ATR or 25mm ATG (Captured French)
--Plotone c.c da 47/32
----Comando – 1 x Jumior Officer, 2 x EM
----Squadra c.c da 47/32 – 1 x NCO, 10 x EM, 1 x 47/32 ATG
----Squadra c.c da 47/32 – 1 x NCO, 10 x EM, 1 x 47/32 ATG
----Squadra c.c da 47/32 – 1 x NCO, 10 x EM, 1 x 47/32 ATG

The three Heavy Trucks in the Company HQ were used to tow the antitank guns, and haul the antitank rifles and HMGs.

SOURCE:
NARA Records Group 242, Microcopy T821, Roll 21, File IT111
“Formazioni Provvisorie di Guerra – Comandi, Reparti e Servizi in A.S. – Fascicolo C – Fanteria,” Stato Maggiore R. Esercito, Ufficio Ordinamento

Posted 02 May 2011 by David
In reality how often was this level of equipment actually achieved?

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Posted 02 May 2011 by Montbrun
david, on 02 May 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:
In reality how often was this level of equipment actually achieved?

At the beginning of the Gazala Campaign, the Italian units involved were at 100%. As time went on, the Italian policy was to disband companies, to keep the others up to strength. Each Battalion would start with two to four companies, and as losses were accrued, companies would be folded into the other companies to keep them up to strength. Eventually, the third Battalion would be placed in "suspended animation" until the unit could be withdrawn and brought back up to strength. This means that an Infantry Regiment could start with three Battalions of four Companies, and end up with two Battalions of two Companies.

Also, the AS42 Rifle Company was designed as a defensive unit, forming "strongpoints" with the individual squads within the Company. A "strongpoint" would consist of one Squadra Fucilieri, one Squadra Mitraglieri, one Squadra Controcarro, and one Squadra c.c da 47/32. Each Company could form three "strongpoints" in this manner.

Brad

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Posted 06 May 2011 by madmike
Montbrun, how could i enter in the NARA archivies, for take a look at the microfilms?

I try to do, but it seems a much complicated site, even if you have the rolls numbers....

thank you.

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Posted 06 May 2011 by Montbrun
madmike, on 06 May 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:
Montbrun, how could i enter in the NARA archivies, for take a look at the microfilms?

I try to do, but it seems a much complicated site, even if you have the rolls numbers....

thank you.

If you're interested in the Italian information, there is a guide posted here on this website, for Microcopy T-821:

Italian Military Records – NARA Microfilm Series

Once you've found what you want, go here:

https://eservices.ar...es.archives.gov

Create an account, and order the roll you want. The rolls now come on DVD, but make damn sure you specify "DVD." They're US$125.00 per Roll/DVD.

Brad