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Machine Guns In As Divisions

#1 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 10:59 PM

http://niehorster.or...trans_40as.html

Doc Niehorster gives 232 Heavy Machine gun to this formation. How he can get that number?
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#2 User is offline   diciassette2000 

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:38 AM

View PostDili, on 12 February 2011 - 10:59 PM, said:

http://niehorster.or...trans_40as.html

Doc Niehorster gives 232 Heavy Machine gun to this formation. How he can get that number?


The "Tabelle" of Regio Esercito are sometimes wrong or fill with some mistakes.....This numbers of heavy MG (232) its the official quote of
"Formazione di guerra della divisione autotrasportabile di fanteria tipo AS 1940" (TOE of autotrasportabile division Type AS 1940) from SME
(Stato Maggiore Esercito) of Regio Esercito. The subtotal (232) came from this ...... 25 MG (x2) from infantry regiments, 18 MG from artillery regiment,
92 Heavy MG from L3 Tank battalion (46 tank with two MG each) and 72 Heavy MG from MG battalion (Hq + 6 coy with 12 MG each). But in effect the tank
battalion never was organic to the divisions Type 1940 and the MG battalion never was at full TOE....so..........
All the best
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#3 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:46 PM

Aha! Many thanks diciassette2000. So it seems they made the same rule w/ Celere (249 HMG) Corazzata (410 HMG). I just hope they didn't followed that with later TOE's.

Your numbers open another issue: 72 HMG in MG Battalion. Is this a reinforced battalion w/ 6xCo? i have 48 HMG in independent HMG battalions w/4 Co and 24 in independent motorised ("autocarrato").?
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#4 User is offline   diciassette2000 

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:20 PM

View PostDili, on 13 February 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

Aha! Many thanks diciassette2000. So it seems they made the same rule w/ Celere (249 HMG) Corazzata (410 HMG). I just hope they didn't followed that with later TOE's.

Your numbers open another issue: 72 HMG in MG Battalion. Is this a reinforced battalion w/ 6xCo? i have 48 HMG in independent HMG battalions w/4 Co and 24 in independent motorised ("autocarrato").?


Its a theoretical MG Battalion in effect never employed. It born from the idea that a AS division take combat like a ww1 division.....but in reality never was like this. In 1942 the Army Corps MG battalions were all
on Hq + 4 coys (48 HMG) Only some of the GAF MG battalions retained HQ+ 4/5 or 6 MG coys (12 HMG x coy)but they are strange units with its coys numbered that sometimes take combat detached from the battalion. Since 1942 some divisions retained also the motorized MG battalion "autocarrato" (metropolitan autotrasportabile divisions but their TOE was Hq + 3 coys 8 x 3 heavy MG). The 1940 TOEs table for divisione autotrasportabile or corazzata are an also very very theoretical TOEs table . On field no one celere or corazzata divisions have these TOE..........italian mistery..........
all the best
Maurizio
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#5 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:32 PM

Thanks.
I have for 1 June 1940 an Alegatto w/ 1293 HMG's for XX corps only. With just 3 Divisions how that numbers could be achieved? Would an alegatto include the L3 tankettes machine guns in it?

Even then i can only understand this number if the GAF and Lybian machine guns battalions were included in it. Zuara and Nalut had 7 Battalions machine guns in them, there was also 2 Squadron MG's plus eventualy 2 MG companies in Tripoli.

With 1173 Machine guns in XXI Corps it is even more difficult to find where they came from.
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#6 User is offline   diciassette2000 

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:35 PM

View PostDili, on 13 February 2011 - 09:32 PM, said:

Thanks.
I have for 1 June 1940 an Alegatto w/ 1293 HMG's for XX corps only. With just 3 Divisions how that numbers could be achieved? Would an alegatto include the L3 tankettes machine guns in it?

Even then i can only understand this number if the GAF and Lybian machine guns battalions were included in it. Zuara and Nalut had 7 Battalions machine guns in them, there was also 2 Squadron MG's plus eventualy 2 MG companies in Tripoli.

With 1173 Machine guns in XXI Corps it is even more difficult to find where they came from.


I dont know what kind of "allegato" you have but its clear that italian SME add all the possible HMG (also the tanks HMG, the defense HMG of the artillery units and also the AA HMG) in all the subtotals........
At 1st june 1940 the 21.o CA have:
-21.a compagnia bersaglieri motociclisti
-21.o Raggruppamento genio di Corpo d’Armata with:
--21.o battaglione speciale artieri
--21.o battaglione collegamenti
--21.a colombaia mobile
--21.a compagnia chimica
-21.o battaglione carri L3/35
-21.o Raggruppamento d'Artiglieria di Corpo d'Armata with:
--I/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--II/21 Gruppo da 105/28 (12 pezzi da 105/28)
--III/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--IV/21 Gruppo da 75/27-906 (12 pezzi da 75/27-906)
--13/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--14/21 Batteria da 20/65 antiaerea (8 pezzi da 20/65)
--21.o gruppo contraereo da 75/27 CK
--21.o Reparto Specialisti di CA
-Divisione di fanteria Marmarica
-Divisione di fanteria Cirene
Its very very difficoult .....find 1173 Machine guns ??????????
a second italian mistery??????!!!!
Probabily its add all the GAF sector attached to it??????!!!!
All the best
Maurizio
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Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:23 PM

The allegato is this. I think they had to put the GAF units inside Corps to get that numbers. See how Armata level is reduced to almost nothing.

Posted Image
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#8 User is offline   david 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:52 PM

Slightly off topic guys, so please forgive me, bur does anyone have a list of the Machine guns (& ANY other heavy weapons) that would have been present in a Battagione Misto Genio?
Cheers; Dave.

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 03:27 PM

My data says no heavy weapons.
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#10 User is offline   david 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 04:07 PM

Thanks.

So just rifles & pistols then?
Cheers; Dave.

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 04:10 PM

Rifles, pistols and maybe light machine guns like Breda 30, all squad weapons but i haven't detailed data to confirm.
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#12 User is offline   david 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 04:17 PM

Thanks.

So possibly sub machine guns or Lt machine guns.(maybe someone can confirm.
But no mortars, or Solothurn?
Cheers; Dave.

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:59 PM

I doubt submachine guns, they were rare, usually only for special units. Lt machine guns "Fucile Mitragliatore" Breda 30 a typical squad weapon yes. I checked the Alpini Genio and it has 4 Machine guns and 16 Breda 30. But it is an unit with almost 700 men. The typical misto genio i have it has 567 men.
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#14 User is offline   david 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 06:11 PM

Thanks again.
Cheers; Dave.

#15 User is offline   voloire 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:00 PM

In the theorical TO&E of battaglione misto genio for Divisione Alpina i found

16 fucili mitragliatori Breda 30 cal. 6,5 mm. and 4 mitragliatrici Breda 37, cal. 8 mm.

I don't know if it was the same for AS units....
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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:19 PM

That's what i said Voloire :P
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#17 User is offline   david 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:58 PM

How can we find out?
Cheers; Dave.

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:02 PM

Italian data. Nafziger which is not very reliable doesn't lists any Machine gun or Fucile Mitra. Check here http://miles-sdr.for...net/?t=38680422

This very detailed TOE of an Italian Division 1940 also doesn't list any: http://xoomer.virgil...teria_1940.html
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