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Brescia?

#21 User is offline   david 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 11:31 AM

Guys.

re the above. Which Battaglione of Brescia would have arrived in Nov 1939?
Cheers; Dave.

#22 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 02:01 PM

David

My sources don’t provide a detailed beak-out of the forces at the end of 1939. This tends to hold true for the 5° Armata in 1940, as it is not the focus of the events of that year. However, I have not found anything to indicate that the movement of the divisione Bresica was prolonged or drawn-out. Given this was a planned deployment based on mobilization, it likely happened very quickly. My position, lacking any other information, it that the entire division was transported in Sep-Oct 1939.

The btg. complementi is a puzzle. L’esercito italiano tra la 1° e la 2° guera mondiale pages 180 and 184 doesn’t list a btg. complementi as part of the tipo A.S. structure. Yet allegato 58 on page 313 does list this battalion. Neither Africa settentrionale: La Preparazione al Conflitto l'Avanzata su Sidi el Barrani, Ottobre 1935 - Settembre 1940 or Montanari (vol I) list a btg. a.c. as part of any of the unit organizations in the various OBs provided.

The first mention of this unit is in Montanari vol II on page 29. IN March 1941 the S.M. is discussing a reorganization in the first attempt to correct the shortcomings of the infantry divisions. A btg. armi di accompagnamento divisionale is listed, and the btg. mitraglieri is missing. A total of 56 47/32 c.c. is given for the division. This appears to be the organization used in 1941, as the April 1941 OBs reflects units that have the number of weapons listed. All the btg. mitraglieri are in garrisons or assigned to units that form garrisons.

My current conclusion is that the entire division arrived in 1939. The btg. a.c was not part of the tipo A.S. structure in 1939-1940. The btg. a.c. divisionale were created in 1941 with a three cp. c.c. structure.

I am still looking at this, but my limited sources likely won’t provide a ‘smoking gun’ to finally resolve this. I am hoping others will add what they can.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#23 User is offline   david 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 04:42 PM

Thanks Jeff.

Let's all keep digging.

Just to recap (correct me if I'm wrong) we are looking at the following Brescia units definately in N.A by Italy's Declaration of war. & probably by December 1939.
I/19 II/19.
I/20 II/20.
XXVII Mitraglieri.
XXVII Misto Genio.
IIGr/55 IIIGr/55.

Have I missed any?

We'll move onto arrival dates for the others after we have got some agreement on the above shall we?
Cheers; Dave.

#24 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 04:53 PM

David

Please note I don't have my sources handy. Is there some reason you don't list the III btg. of each regiment, or the I gruppo of the artillery? I have not read anything to indicate this, but I haven't looked at this specific issue. All my information inidcates three battalions per regiment, and the three artillery gruppi.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#25 User is offline   david 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 05:07 PM

Jeff.

I had no hard info that the III/19 & III/20 were present that early. So I left them out for that reason.
Also, IGr/55 was taken out of Brescia to be part of Raggrupamento D'Artiglieria DiManovre, but I wasn't sure when (poss late 1940) so I left it out for that reason. I shall edit my post according to your next reply.
Cheers; Dave.

#26 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 08:29 PM

David

Roger, just wanted to insure we are in synch.

IIRC, when researching this issue the last few days, the artillery was reassigned in June 1940. I will check that, but I noted it when I was reading.

I read nothing that indicated the regiments were only two battalions. However, I wasn't looking for that. I wil see what I can find.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#27 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 03:13 AM

55° reggimento artiglieria was reassigned on 16 June 1940 to 10° Armata. Source is Montanari volume I page 65.

Still working on the other units.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#28 User is offline   david 

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 11:53 PM

Thanks Jeff.
Cheers; Dave.

#29 User is offline   david 

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 06:58 PM

I forgot to include the XXVII Battaglione Comlementi. :oops:

When did that arrive?
Cheers; Dave.

#30 User is offline   david 

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:39 AM

One month and no new posts :?

Has everyone lost interest in the Divisione Brescia? :wink:
Cheers; Dave.

#31 User is offline   arditi1917 

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:44 AM

David,

No I have not! I have just been focusing my attention towards events, and Brescia in WW1 since I purchased a book on the II Corpo in France. I have no new information but I am sure Jeff while juggling more projects has not given up. lets keep it alive does anyone else have any input?
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#32 User is offline   david 

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:04 AM

Swift response! :)
Cheers; Dave.

#33 User is offline   arditi1917 

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:19 AM

I just happened to be up and checking mail. :D
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#34 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:16 PM

No new sources. I am looking for books, but have not found anything helpful.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#35 User is offline   david 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 01:29 AM

Quote

No new sources. I am looking for books, but have not found anything helpful.


Not even regarding the Battaglione Complimenti?
Cheers; Dave.

#36 User is offline   dor1941 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 05:55 AM

jwsleser said:


The btg. complementi is a puzzle. L’esercito italiano tra la 1° e la 2° guera mondiale pages 180 and 184 doesn’t list a btg. complementi as part of the tipo A.S. structure. Yet allegato 58 on page 313 does list this battalion. Neither Africa settentrionale: La Preparazione al Conflitto l'Avanzata su Sidi el Barrani, Ottobre 1935 - Settembre 1940 or Montanari (vol I) list a btg. a.c. as part of any of the unit organizations in the various OBs provided.



David and Jeff

I understood the battaglione complementi to be merely a "reserve infantry battalion" (as described in a common reference book-The Armed Forces of World War II, Andrew Mollo, London, 1981) and present only in "some" divisions. I noticed the Regio Escercito website shows the XXVII Btg Complementi as part of Brescia for April and November 1941 and Montanari (Vol II-Tobruk, 782) lists this battagilone for April '41 also (along with those of other divisions-and independent btg complementi-as well). It appears that they were commonly detached from their parent divisions for various garrison and other duties.

Given the ephemeral nature of these units I suspect it would be very difficult to establish arrival dates and keep track of their presence in NA. Is there any source confirming Brescia even had a btg complementi in 1939-40? The Regio Esercito website shows Brescia without one then, but I understand the site is not particularly reliable.

David R
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#37 User is offline   david 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 08:57 AM

David R,
Thank you for the answer above.
I too understood the definition of "Complementi".
But I was not aware that they were not present in all Divisione. (I'lll start another thread)
I'm looking to find when they arrive in N.A. But am not so interested in tracking their movements, so hopefully it won't proove too difficult to come up with some answers.

You are right! The R.E site is not always reliable.
Cheers; Dave.

#38 User is offline   Oasis 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 02:56 PM

I cannot find a mention of XXVII battaglione complementi Brescia before OOB of 31 march 1941.
It is still operating on 1 november 1941 and one company is in Mechili on 25 april 1942.
Cheers

Toni
"Igne Celerrime Diruo"
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#39 User is offline   david 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Toni.
Cheers; Dave.

#40 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 10:16 PM

The presence of "march" units is often neglected by official sources, too
melius esse quam videri

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