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Battaglione a.a. e a.c.

#21 User is online   david 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:34 AM

Andreas.

Quote

See the link above, it states that the 3rd battalion of 66 Fanteria arrived with the 1st and 2nd in August. Loi gives the commanders as Maggiores Emanuele Rossi (III/65) and Franco Taddei (III/66). Also Loi states that the organisation of infantry regiments in Tipo A.S. Motorrizata was based on 3 battalions, and this is confirmed by Montanari (p. 309) in his diagram for the organisation of the Divisione Tipo Trento.


Again I am indebted to you. Everything I have seen has 65 & 66 as 2x battaglione.
The third battaglione are each a.a?
Cheers; Dave.

#22 User is online   david 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:39 AM

Andreas.

Quote

Loi reproduces a document with the header 9 Reggimento Bersaglieri Motociclisti of 5 January 1942. They may have kept the designation even though they were primarily A/P?


Sounds reasonable! :)



Quote

n the original document it is in Roman numerals and it is clearly referred to as a bataglione commanded by Teniente Colonello Francesco Paolo Francese. Loi also states that the battalion was almost completely lost, but had been rebuilt by 20 October.


Lost? Lost at sea? Destroyed in combat? 20th October 1941 or '42?





Quote

Loi does not mention anything corrazato, neither does Montanari for the Tipo Trento organisation. In early September no L3 tanks were reported in either Trento or Trieste (Montanari p.322), even though there were quite a few in the infantry divisions. Commander was apparently Maggiore Vittorino Tarsia.


Still not sure what to think about this one. Can we dig deeper?
Cheers; Dave.

#23 User is online   david 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:54 AM

Jeff.


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RE: Trento. The diagram is in vol II, page 305 in my copy. This is the two infantry (autopr), one btg. acc. e c.c. structure (total of three btgs, but not all infantry).

Vol II, page 29 (33 for Andreas), 214-216 (218-220), and 262-264 (266-268) discusses the changes in divisional structure, the decision to do so, and the problems in doing so. The decision was apparently made in late May-mid June 41.


Can we confirm dates for the conversion of III/61. III/62. III/65. III/66?


Quote

RE: Mitragliatieri. Yes, Trento’s DLI btg mitr. had not arrived before the decision to reorganize was made. I still believe the new divisional-level btg. acc. e c.c took the mitr. btg. number. It appears that the btg. arrived already reorganized or was done shortly afterwards.


So are we talking about another seperate Battaglione here, or did it become III/61 or III/62?


108 = CVIII.
DVIII = 508.
C sounds like D & is close on the keyboard, so DVIII a typo?
Cheers; Dave.

#24 User is offline   Andreas 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:44 PM

david said:

Andreas.

Thank you again. Now I have a little time!

Quote

That's not possible I am afraid David. Nobody arrived in Tripoli in early November, at least no organised formation in division strength. The only big convoy was Beta/Duisburg which was completely destroyed, and even that was kit and not men. The division arrived on the big liner convoys in August and September, and suffered 450 killed when Gritti, Oceania and Neptunia were sunk. Loi states that the CO of IX Gruppo of 21 Artigliera died when the latter two were sunk by HMS Upholder. Montanari (p.347) states that the division was around Homs in early September. On 25 October small elements of the division already undertook recce towards Segnali and Mechili. On 8 November the division was in the sector Bir Hakeim-Bel Harmat-Mteifel el Chebir (also confirmed by Montanari p. 367 for 10 November)


That's great. I could never positively place the Divisione in N.A before November. The lack of convoys in that month should have been a clue.


Yes.

david said:

Andreas.


Quote

In the original document it is in Roman numerals and it is clearly referred to as a bataglione commanded by Teniente Colonello Francesco Paolo Francese. Loi also states that the battalion was almost completely lost, but had been rebuilt by 20 October.


Lost? Lost at sea? Destroyed in combat? 20th October 1941 or '42?


Lost at sea. 20 Oct 41.

david said:

Quote

Loi does not mention anything corrazato, neither does Montanari for the Tipo Trento organisation. In early September no L3 tanks were reported in either Trento or Trieste (Montanari p.322), even though there were quite a few in the infantry divisions. Commander was apparently Maggiore Vittorino Tarsia.


Still not sure what to think about this one. Can we dig deeper?


Agree, maybe somebody else can jump in? E.g. do L3 tanks features in any of the combat reports?


david said:

108 = CVIII.
DVIII = 508.
C sounds like D & is close on the keyboard, so DVIII a typo?


Brainfart - I was so focussed on other things, I mistook 'D' for 100. Idiot I am...

All the best

Andreas
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#25 User is offline   Andreas 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:45 PM

Ps. You need to go to bed more early.

All the best

Andreas
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#26 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 07:53 PM

David

I haven't been able to dig any deeper (too busy). I hope to get back into this tomorrow.

Quote

RE: Mitragliatieri. Yes, Trento’s DLI btg mitr. had not arrived before the decision to reorganize was made. I still believe the new divisional-level btg. acc. e c.c took the mitr. btg. number. It appears that the btg. arrived already reorganized or was done shortly afterwards.

So are we talking about another seperate Battaglione here, or did it become III/61 or III/62?


Under the organization Tipo motorizzata A.S., a divisional acc. e c.c battalion was authorized. This replaced the divisonal btg. mitr. that was authorized under the standard motorizzata TO&E. The DVIII & DLI existed in Italy as motorized MG battalions. It appears the DLI was deployed to A.S. as a mitr. unit, only to be coverted when the decision was made to changed the two divisions to tipo A.S. TO&E.

The btg. acc. e c.c. in the regiments was to be created by changing the third battalion. The 1940 motorizzata TO&E already reflected this organization. The new question is when was the 1940 organization ordered, and whether Trieste and Trento had started or completed this reorganization prior to their deployment to A.S.? From what I am seeing, these units had not converted and still had the three infantry btg. structure. So it is likely that the personnel was shipped to A.S. and the conversion done when equipment became available. But this requires more research.

The Tipo A.S. 42 structure kept the two inf, one acc. e c.c. btg. structure. However, it appears this was modified in Feb 42 back to a three infantry battalion structure. See Montanari vol III pages 93-99 and footnote 7 and 8 (page 154). Footnote 7 states the Df tipo A.S. 42 had a three infantry battalion structure. I believe (still working through the translation) that the equipment needed simply wasn’t available (e.g seventy-two 47/32 c.c. per division). So the answer was to go back to three infantry battalions.

Page 99 states the reorganization was completed by 28 Feb 42. Note the Trieste was not reorganized as a Df tipo A.S., and doesn't come under this comment. Trieste was organized as a tipo motorizzata A.S. 42. This added the recce and carri btgs. No tanks or armored cars were part of the motorized divisions until the A.S. 42 structure. Because the unit was motorized, the lack of trucks (among everything else) delayed the creation of the third btgs.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#27 User is online   david 

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 11:20 PM

Andreas. Thanks.

Jeff. All very complex. Let's see if we can draw any positive conclusions at the end of all this. In the meantime "Happy searching, one & all!"
Cheers; Dave.

#28 User is offline   Jeff Leser 

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:46 PM

I have been working on a list of all the different acc. e c.c. organizations to answer the original question. Last night I found a detailed breakdown of the A.S. 42 infantry company. It was not what I expected. It does allow me to now make sense of two charts where the totals given didn't match my own calculations. I am pretty busy today, but will try to get this posted sometime in the next day or two.

Pista!

Jeff
btg. sciatori Alpini « Monte Cervino » (reenacted)
19° reggimento fanteria « Brescia » (reenacted)

#29 User is online   david 

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 12:55 PM

I look forward to that Jeff.
Cheers; Dave.

#30 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 06:53 PM

Thanks i'll wait for it too.
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#31 User is offline   dor1941 

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:49 AM

I thought it might be helpful to some readers to summarize what has been posted to date in this Forum regarding the battaglione armi di accompagnamento, include a few details provided by other sources and get some feedback about the accuracy of this information.

A number of the mixed heavy weapons battalions-known as battaglioni armi di accompagnamento-which were authorized for those Italian divisions in or operating with Panzergruppe Afrika at the start of Crusader did in fact exist and took part in the battles of November and December, 1941. Five of those seven divisions likely had one or more of these heavy weapons battalions at that time, including the following:
VIII/7 Bersaglieri (Trento)
III/61 fanteria (Trento)
III/62 fanteria (Trento)
DLI btg armi acc.to (Trento)
III/8 Bersaglieri (Ariete)
XL/9 Bersaglieri (Trieste)
III/65 fanteria (Trieste)
DVIII btg armi acc.to (Trieste)
III/39 fanteria (Bologna)
III/40 fanteria (Bologna)
XXV btg armi acc.to (Bologna)
III/28 fanteria (Pavia)
XVII btg armi acc.to (Pavia)

Divisioni Savona and Brescia were also mandated to create these regimental and divisional battaglioni armi di accompagnamento but had formed none by the end of the year.

Several preliminary points should be made:
1. These weapons battalions were authorized by a mandate from Comando Supremo in mid 1941 for divisioni motorizzata, including the Bersaglieri regiments. As noted in jwsleser's post of 3-27-09 a reorganization initiated in February 1942 eliminated many of these btg. armi di accompagnamento.
2. A number of the authorized heavy weapons battalions were never formed, and possibly a large proportion of those that were created were still incomplete in some respects by November 1941. Also, some were in theater/A.S. but not present with their divisions during Crusader.
3. A mandated organization was stated previously, as follows:

michele said:

As far as I know, a "Battaglione di armi anticarro e di accompagnamento" (="antitank weapons and support weapons batalion") in theory had:

- 1 HQ-platoon
- 1 AA company (20 mm)
- 1 towed AT company
- 1 mortar company (81 mm)
- 1 MG company

Source: "Nozioni di organica per i corsi allievi ufficiali di complemento", S.M.R.E., Roma, Luglio 1941-XIX, page 50.


Despite this authorized structure, it is immediately apparent that at least some of these battalions existed in other forms-deviations from this theoretical format seem to have been common. Examples of this are in the Organico Divisione Motorizzata Tipo "Trento" in Montanari, "Le Operazioni in Africa Settentrionale", Vol. II-Tobruk, p. 309 (2nd ed.):
each of the two reggimenti fanteria motorizzati had "un battaglione armi accompagnamento e controcarro su:
-compagnia comando;
-compagnia mortai da 81;
-compagnia cannoni da 47/32;
-compagnia da 20 mm c.a."
the reggimento bersaglieri had "un battaglione armi accompagnamento e controcarri su:
-compagnia comando;
-due compagnie mortai da 81;
-una compagnia da 20 mm c.a."
and the divisional "un battaglione armi di accompagnamento e controcarri su:
-compagnia comando
-due compagnie mitraglieri;
-una compagnia mortai da 81;
-una compagnia cannoni da 47/32"
Clearly this is the intended "establishment" for D. mot. Trento, but shows that the structure of these mixed heavy weapons battalions was not wedded to a fixed model. Logically, the types of weapons in these support battalions could depend on the equipment of the sister battalions within the regiment-for example, since each of the rifle battaglioni of the reggimento bersaglieri included a compagnia of 47/32 c.c., its support weapons battaglione did not contain one. Also, possibly because the divisional battaglione armi di accompagnamento of Trento was created from its former machine-gun battalion, the new unit had two compagnie mitraglieri instead of one.

Some sources and posts (other than in this thread) referencing these weapons battalions, by division:
D. mot. Trento
Montanari, A.S., Vol. II-Tobruk, p. 309 (as above)
D. cor. Ariete
Montanari, p. 321 (and many more-there is no index for battalion-sized units)
posts by jwsleser: 5-23-09 and 7-3-09, "OOBs for Bir el Gubi"
posts by dor1941: 6-24-09 and 7-4-09, "OOBs for Bir el Gubi"
post by jwsleser: 7-13-09, "37mm AA Gun in Esercito"
post by jwsleser: "2-23-10, "Ariete's Battalions"
D. mot. Trieste
Montanari, p. 426
Agar-Hamilton and Turner, p.476
post by voloire: 2-15-06, "XL Battaglione Armi Accompagnamento"
post by Granatiere: 4-1-08, "65th & 66th Reggimento Trieste"
D. f. Bologna
Montanari, p. 518 (endnote 3)
D. f. Pavia
Montanari, p. 518 (endnote 2)
post by Lupo Solitario: 5-3-05, "Divisione Pavia"

Additions, corrections and comments welcome.

David R
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#32 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:11 PM

Opinions on this:

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En 1941, l'Esercito commença à constituer des bataillons antichars autonomes, assignés aux corps d'armée ou aux divisions. Quatre de ces bataillons (du 101° au 104°) furent équipés de pièces d'origine hollandaise, et trois autres avec du matériel de la GAF, sur 24 canons chacun. D'autres bataillons enfin furent dotées de pièces d'origine italienne. Entre 1941 et 1942, les bataillons d'infanterie et de bersaglieri des divisions motorisées et blindées, ainsi que de certaines divisions d'infanterie, furent renforcés par un, deux ou trois pelotons sur 4 canons de 47/32. Les 47/32 faisaient également partie des bataillons d'accompagnement et antichars divisionnaires ou régimentaires pour les divisions motorisées, blindées et de la batterie antichar du régiment d'artillerie pour division motorisée de type AS (Africa Settantrionale).


It makes reference to A/T battalions

http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... 47-32.html

Source seems to be - Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, Filippo Cappellano, Storia Militare, 1998
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#33 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:11 PM

Opinions on this:

Quote

En 1941, l'Esercito commença à constituer des bataillons antichars autonomes, assignés aux corps d'armée ou aux divisions. Quatre de ces bataillons (du 101° au 104°) furent équipés de pièces d'origine hollandaise, et trois autres avec du matériel de la GAF, sur 24 canons chacun. D'autres bataillons enfin furent dotées de pièces d'origine italienne. Entre 1941 et 1942, les bataillons d'infanterie et de bersaglieri des divisions motorisées et blindées, ainsi que de certaines divisions d'infanterie, furent renforcés par un, deux ou trois pelotons sur 4 canons de 47/32. Les 47/32 faisaient également partie des bataillons d'accompagnement et antichars divisionnaires ou régimentaires pour les divisions motorisées, blindées et de la batterie antichar du régiment d'artillerie pour division motorisée de type AS (Africa Settantrionale).


It makes reference to A/T battalions

http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... 47-32.html

Source seems to be - Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, Filippo Cappellano, Storia Militare, 1998
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#34 User is online   david 

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:34 AM

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I have been working on a list of all the different acc. e c.c. organizations to answer the original question. Last night I found a detailed breakdown of the A.S. 42 infantry company. It was not what I expected. It does allow me to now make sense of two charts where the totals given didn't match my own calculations. I am pretty busy today, but will try to get this posted sometime in the next day or two.

Pista!

Jeff



Jeff, did you ever?
Cheers; Dave.

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