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A General Overview of Italian Artillery In North Africa 1941

#1 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:37 PM

Based upon Storia della Artiglieria Italiana, Parte V, Volume XVI.

Be warned:

1) I did not cross-check it with Montanari or any other source.

2) I skipped 10ª Armata

3) I did not attempt to cover G.a.F.



PART 1 - 25 JULY 1940 [pages 218-225]

Except for the 5° Rgrp and a very few other units, ALL the artillery listed here was lost during Compass. Apparently it all was transferred to 10ª Armata, although I was unable to exactly discover what happened to most of the 75mm units. A few were eventually re-raised with the same number.

5ª Armata
(Chief of artillery: Gen. Br. Cesare Benelli)

5° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata (Col. Angelo Letizia)
- XIX (19°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [survived into spring 1941]
- XX (20°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [survived into spring 1941]
- XXI (21°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [survived into spring 1941]
- XXII (22°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [survived into spring 1941]

X Corpo d'Armata

25ª D.f. "Bologna"
10° Rgt. Art.(Col. Mario Simoncelli)
- I/10° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to Rgrp. di Manovra] [note #1]
- II/10° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to ?]
- III/10° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to ?]
- 4ª (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to Rgrp. Maletti] [note #2]
Plus:
- 39ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to ?] [note #3]
- 40ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to ?]
- 25ª Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32) [detached to Supercomando ASI]

[#1] I believe all 100/17 groups in every divisional Rgt. Art. had the same numeral, however I am unsure if all were the "I" or the "III". Here I labelled them all as "I" for sake of consistency. BTW I/10° is listed again in 1941, unclear if it survived or was re-raised.

[#2] Some 20mm units were manned by artillerymen and so called "Batterie" while others manned by infantrymen were "Compagnie". I am unsure of the actual situation, so I labelled them all "Batterie".

[#3] I believe the correct identification was "Battery of 27° Rgt. Fanteria" and so on. I transformed it into "27ª Batteria" and so on for sake of simplicity. BTW I have no precise info about the fate of Bologna's two 65mm batteries, so it is possible these units stayed in Tripolitania and survived Compass. Other 65mm Batterie were eventually re-raised later.


55ª D.f. "Savona"
12° Rgt. Art.
- I/12° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to XXXII (32°) Settore di Copertura G.A.F., then to Br. Cor. Speciale (?)]
- II/12° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to XXXII (32°) Settore di Copertura G.A.F., then to Br. Cor. Speciale (?)]
- III/12° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to XXXII (32°) Settore di Copertura G.A.F.]
- 10ª/12° (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to 10° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata, then to Br. Cor. Speciale (?)]
Plus:
- 15ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 1ª D. CC.NN. "23 Marzo"]
- 16ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 2ª D. CC.NN. "23 Marzo"]
- 55ª Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32) [detached to 23° Rgrp. Art. di C.d'A., then to Brigata Corazzata Speciale (?)]

60ª D.f. "Sabratha"
42° Rgt. Art. (Col. Giuseppe Piana)
- I/42° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to Rgrp. di Manovra]
- II/42° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [destroyed ?] [note #4]
- III/42° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [destroyed ?]
- 10ª/42° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to 10° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata]
- 11ª/42° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to 10° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata]
- 12ª /42° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to Rgrp. Maletti]
Plus:
- 85ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [destroyed ?]
- 86ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [destroyed ?]
- 60ª Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32) [detached to Supercomando ASI]

[#4] Sabratha's units were probably destroyed in early February 1941 along with most of the division.

XX Corpo d'Armata

17ª D.f. "Pavia"
26° Rgt. Art. (Col. Aldo Pasquali)
- I/26° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to Rgrp. di Manovra]
- II/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to Homs defences]
- III/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to ?]
- 77ª (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to 61ª D.f. "Sirte"]
Plus:
- 27ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 62ª D.f. "Marmarica"]
- 28ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 62ª D.f. "Marmarica"]
- 17ª Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32) [detached to Supercomando ASI]

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
55° Rgt. Art. (Col. Giuseppe Tramontin)
- I/55° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to Rgrp. di Manovra]
- II/55° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to ?]
- III/55° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [detached to ?]
- 27ª (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [detached to 22° Rgrp. Art. di C.d'A.]
Plus:
- 19ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 2ª D. Libica]
- 20ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [detached to 2ª D. Libica]
- 27ª Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32) [detached to 10ª Armata]
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#2 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:42 PM

PART 2 - 20 FEBRUARY 1941 [pages 452-453]

(very scant detail)



5° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata. not listed, hence in a far rear line

X Corpo d'Armata

- 16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata [no detail]

- ? Gruppo Art. Contraerea [no detail. Later part of 2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea ?]
- ? Gruppo Art. Contraerea [no detail. Later part of 2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea ?]

17ª D.f. "Pavia" (S and E of Sirte)
- ? Rgt. Art. [no detail. 2° Celere ?]
- ? Rgt. Art. [no detail. 3° Celere ?]
- ? Gruppo da 105/28
- ? Gruppo da 75/50 [note #5]

[#5] This Skoda piece was also called 75/48


25ª D.f. "Bologna" (along the road W of Sirte) [note #6]
- 205° Rgt. Art. [no detail]

[#6] Bologna had only 4 infantry battalions

132ª D.cor. "Ariete" (at Buerat, El Tamet, El Gheddaja)
[no detail]

XX Corpo d'Armata

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
[no detail]

55ª D.f. "Savona"
[no detail]

Survivors from Cirenaica (organized around the cadre of 60ª D.f. "Sabratha") (at Homs and Mergheb)
- 20x 100/17
- 20x 75/27
- 9x 65/17
- 17x 47/32
- 23x 20/65

Attached to German Forces

- ? Batteria da 75/27 (at En Nofilia)
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#3 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:47 PM

PART 3 - 1 APRIL 1941 [pages 456-463]



Unattached

2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea
- XVIII (18°) Gruppo da 88/56 (12x 88/56)
- XXIX (29°) Gruppo da 88/56 (12x 88/56)
- XLII (42°) Gruppo da 75/50 (8x 75/50) [detached to 17ª D.f. "Pavia"]
- XLIII (43°) Gruppo da 75/50 (8x 75/50) [detached to X Corpo d'Armata]
- XIV (14°) Gruppo da 75/27 C.K. (8x 75/27 C.K.) [detached to X Corpo d'Armata]

132ª D.cor. "Ariete"
132 Rgt. Art. (Col. Aurelio Forgiero)
- I/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- II/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- 7ª/32° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 8ª/32° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 9ª/32° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
Plus:
- I/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [attached from 24° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata]
- ? Batteria da 37/54 (10x 37/54)
- 146ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)

102ª D.mot. "Trento"
46° Rgt. Art. (Col. Valentino De Paolis)
- I/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [still en route]
- III/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [still en route]
- 412ª (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [still en route]
- 414ª (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [still en route]

X Corpo d'Armata

16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata (Col. Luigi Del Monte)
- XV (15°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [detached to 27ª D.f. "Brescia"]
- XLIV (44°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- XLIX (49°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

24° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata
- I/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [detached to 132ª D.cor. "Ariete"]
- II/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [detached to 17ª D.f. "Pavia"]
- III/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

Attached
- I/10° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [from 60ª D.f. "Sabratha"]
- XLIII (43°) Gruppo da 75/50 (8x 75/50) [from 2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea]
- XIV (14°) Gruppo da 75/27 C.K. (8x 75/27 C.K.) [from 2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea]

17ª D.f. "Pavia"
2° Rgt. Art. Celere (Col. Giulio Grati) [detached from Supercomando ASI]
- I/2°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/2°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- III/2°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
3° Rgt. Art. Celere
- II/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- III/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- 7ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 8ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 48ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
Plus:
- II/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [attached from 24° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata]
- XLII (42°) Gruppo da 75/50 (8x 75/50) [attached from 2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea]
- 11ª Batteria da Postazione G.A.F. (4x 75/27)
- 68ª Batteria da Postazione G.A.F. (4x 75/27)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)

25ª D.f. "Bologna"
205° Rgt. Art. (Col. Enrico Landi)
- I/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- II/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- III/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- 4ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [newly raised unit with an old number ?]
- 17ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 30ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
Plus:
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
1° Rgt. Art. Celere (Ten. Col. Mario Griccioli)
- I/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- II/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- ? Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- ? Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- ? Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
Plus:
- XV (15°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [attached from 16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata]
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- ? Compagnia da 47/32 (8x 47/32)

XX Corpo d'Armata

5° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata
- XIX (19°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to Tripoli defences]
- XX (20°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35)
- XXI (21°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35)
- XXII (22°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to Tripoli defences]

55ª D.f. "Savona"
12° Rgt. Art.
- I/12° Gruppo da 100/17 (8x 100/17) [newly raised unit with an old number]
- II/12° Gruppo (8x 105/28 + 4x 75/27-06) [newly raised unit with an old number]
- 27ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [newly raised unit with an old number ?]
- 503ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 504ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)

60ª D.f. "Sabratha" (rebuilding)
- I/10° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [detached to X Corpo d'Armata]

Coastal defences, including:
- II/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [at Homs]

Long list of G.A.F. units skipped, sorry!
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#4 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:51 PM

PART 4 - SEPTEMBER 1941 [pages 484-487]



(listed in a different way, and not including neither 47mm or 20mm)

2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea
- XVIII (18°) Gruppo da 88/56 (12x 88/56) [detached to Bengasi defences]
- XXIX (29°) Gruppo da 88/56 (12x 88/56) [detached to ?]
- XLII (42°) Gruppo da 75/50 (8x 75/50) [detached to Bengasi defences]
- XLIII (43°) Gruppo da 75/50 (16x 75/50) [detached to Bengasi defences]
- XVI (16° - a typo?) Gruppo da 75/27 C.K. (8x 75/27 C.K.) [detached to Derna defences]

5° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata
- XIX (19°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to Tripoli defences]
- XX (20°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to Tripoli defences]
- XXI (21°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to ?]
- XXII (22°) Gruppo da 149/35 (12x 149/35) [detached to Tripoli defences]

8° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata (Col. Guido Froio) [arrived between September and October]
- LII (52°) Gruppo da 152/37 (8x 152/37) [134ª, 135ª Batterie]
- XXXIII (33°) Gruppo da 149/40 (12x 149/40) [97ª, 98ª, 99ª Batterie]
- CXXXI (131°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 ) [1ª/CXXXI, 2ª/CXXXI Batterie]
- CXLVII (147°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 ) [1ª/CXLVII, 2ª/CXLVII Batterie]

9° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata [arrived between September and October]
- CXI (111°) Gruppo da 149/13 (?x 149/13)
- CXVIII (118°) Gruppo da 149/13 (?x 149/13)
- XXXIII (33°) Gruppo da 105/28 (?x 105/28 )
- XLIV (44°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata (Col. Luigi Del Monte)
- XV (15°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- XLIX (49°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

17ª D.f. "Pavia"
26° Rgt. Art.
- I/26° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [formerly III/24° ?]
- II/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11)
3° Rgt. Art. Celere
- I/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11) [maybe II/3°cel ?]
- II/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11) [maybe III/3°cel ?]
24° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata [attached from Supercomando ASI]
- I/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- II/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- III/24° Gruppo [not present, see above]
Plus:
- 27ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [re-raised?]
- 28ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [re-raised?]

25ª D.f. "Bologna"
205° Rgt. Art.
- I/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- II/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- III/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11)
Plus:
- I/10° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [attached from ?]

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
1° Rgt. Art. Celere
- II/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11) [maybe I/1°cel ?]
- III/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11) [maybe II/1°cel ?]
Plus:
- ? Gruppo da 100/17 - 8x 100/17 [attached from ?] [later I/1°cel ?]
- 19ª Batteria da 65/17 - 4x 65/17 [re-raised?]
- 20ª Batteria da 65/17 - 4x 65/17 [re-raised?]

55ª D.f. "Savona"
12° Rgt. Art.
- I/12° Gruppo da 100/17 (8x 100/17)
- II/12° Gruppo (8x 105/28 + 4x 75/27-06)
2° Rgt. Art. Celere (Col. Giulio Grati) [attached from Supercomando ASI]
- I/2°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/2°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
- III/2°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-11)
Plus:
- 15ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [re-raised?]
- 16ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [re-raised?]
- 39ª or 40ª (?) Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [attached from 25ª D.f. "Bologna"] [re-raised?]
- 85ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [attached from 60ª D.f. "Sabratha"] [re-raised?]
- 86ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17) [attached from 60ª D.f. "Sabratha"] [re-raised?]

101ª D.mot. "Trieste"
21° Rgt. Art.
- I/21° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/21° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- III/21° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
Plus:
- IX Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [attached from ?]
- XXI Gruppo da 75/27 C.K. (4x 75/27 C.K. + 8x 20/65) [attached from ?]

102ª D.mot. "Trento"
46° Rgt. Art.
- I/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (8x 100/17)
- II/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27)
- III/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27)
340° Rgrp. Art. G.a.F. [attached from ?]
- ? Gruppo da 77/28 (?x 77/28 )
- ? Gruppo da 77/28 (?x 77/28 )
- ? Gruppo da 77/28 (?x 77/28 )
- ? Gruppo da 77/28 (?x 77/28 )
Plus
- ? Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [arrived between September and October, new II/46° ?]

132ª D.cor. "Ariete"
132 Rgt. Art.
- I/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- II/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
Plus:
- ? Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-06) [attached from ?]
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#5 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:56 PM

PART 5 - SPRING 1942 (pages 539-541 & 545-548)



Unattached

2° Rgrp. Art. Contraerea
- XVIII (18°) Gruppo da 88/56 (8x 88/56)
- XLII (42°) Gruppo da 75/50 (12x 75/50)

8° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata [detached to Afrika Korps]
- LII (52°) Gruppo da 152/37 (8x 152/37)
- XXXIII (33°) Gruppo da 149/40 (12x 149/40)
- CXXXI (131°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 )
- CXLVII (147°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 )

X Corpo d'Armata

16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata
- XV (15°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- XLIX (49°) Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

Attached:
- CCCXLIII (343°) Gruppo G.a.F. (12x 105/28 )
- CCCXVL (345°) Gruppo G.a.F. (8x 120/25)

17ª D.f. "Pavia"
26° Rgt. Art.
- I/26° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/26° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [not present, being raised]
- III/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former II/26° ?]
- IV/26° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11) [newly raised unit ?]
- V/26° Gruppo Contraereo e Controcarri (?x ?) [not present, being raised]
- 77ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [newly raised unit with an old number ?]
- 432ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [newly raised unit ?]
- Anti-tank unit (9x 77/28 ) [sent from Tripoli defences]

25ª D.f. "Bologna"
205° Rgt. Art.
- I/205° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [newly raised unit] [note #7]
- II/205° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [not present, being raised]
- III/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11) [newly raised unit]
- IV/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27) [newly raised unit]
- V/205° Gruppo Contraereo e Controcarri (?x ?) [not present, being raised]
- 437 (?) Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- ? Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) [not present, being raised]
- Anti-tank unit (10x 77/28 ) [sent from Tripoli defences]
Attached:
- CCXCI (291°) Gruppo G.a.F. (12x 77/28 )

[#7] 205° Rgt. Art. had been destroyed in November 1941. At the time its Gruppi were already numbered I-III-IV, without a II.

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
1° Rgt. Art. Celere
- I/1°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [former unnamed Gruppo ?]
- II/1°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [newly raised unit ?]
- III/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11) [former I/ or II/1°cel ?]
- IV/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former II/ or III/1°cel ?]
- V/1°cel Gruppo da 88/56 (?x 88/56) [not present, being raised]
- 401ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 404ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- Anti-tank unit (10x 77/28 ) [sent from Tripoli defences]

XXI Corpo d'Armata

24° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata
- I/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )
- II/24° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 )

Attached:
- CCCXXXV (335°) Gruppo G.a.F. (8x 149/12)
- CCCLIII (353°) Gruppo G.a.F. (12x 120/25)

60ª D.f. "Sabratha" [note #8]
3° Rgt. Art. Celere
- I/3°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [newly raised unit]
- II/3°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [not present, being raised]
- III/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-11) [former I/ or II/3°cel ?]
- IV/3°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former II/ or III/3°cel ?]
- V/3°cel Gruppo Contraereo e Controcarri (?x ?) [not present, being raised]
- 403ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 406ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
Attached:
- CCCXXXII (332°) Gruppo G.a.F. (8x 100/17)

[#8] On 1 February 1942 Sabratha artillery consisted of:
- CCLXXXIII (283°) Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- CCLXXXIV (284°) Gruppo da 75/27 (8x 75/27-06)
- 14ª Batteria da 76/30 (4x 76/30)
- 340ª Batteria da 65/17 (4x 65/17)


102ª D.f. "Trento"
46° Rgt. Art.
- I/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [newly raised unit]
- III/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former II/46° ?]
- IV/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former III/46° ?]
- V/3°cel Gruppo Contraereo e Controcarri (?x ?) [not present, being raised]
- 412ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 414ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)

XX Corpo d'Armata (Corpo d'Armata di Manovra until 1 March 1942)

Headquarters:
- 414ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)

101ª D.mot. "Trieste"
21° Rgt. Art.
- I/21° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17)
- II/21° Gruppo da 100/17 (12x 100/17) [newly raised unit]
- III/21° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former II/21° ?]
- IV/21° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) [former III/21° ?]
- V/21° Gruppo Contraereo e Controcarri (?x 75/50)
- 146ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)
- 411ª Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65)

132ª D.cor. "Ariete"
132 Rgt. Art.
- I/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- II/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06)
- III/132° Gruppo da 105/28 (12x 105/28 ) [not present, being raised]
- IV/132° a.k.a. DI (501°) Gruppo (8x 90/53 + 8x 20/65)
- V/132° a.k.a. DLI (551°) Gruppo Semoventi (8x Semoventi da 75/18 )
- VI/132° a.k.a. DLII (552°) Gruppo Semoventi (8x Semoventi da 75/18 )
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#6 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 04:00 PM

PART 6 - EL ALAMEIN (pages 600-602)



(not including most of 47mm and all of 20mm)

Unattached

8° Rgrp. Art. d'Armata
- LII (52°) Gruppo da 152/37 (8x 152/37)
- XXXIII (33°) Gruppo da 149/40 (12x 149/40)
- CXXXI (131°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 )
- CXLVII (147°) Gruppo da 149/28 (8x 149/28 )

16° Rgrp. Art. di Corpo d'Armata
- XV (15°) Gruppo da 105/28 (?x 105/28 )
- XLIX (49°) Gruppo da 105/28 (8x 105/28 )

Plus:
- CCCXXXII (332°) Gruppo da 100/17 G.a.F. (?x 100/17)
- CCCLIV (354°) Gruppo da 77/28 G.a.F. (?x 77/28 )
- CCCLV (355°) Gruppo da 75/27 G.a.F. (?x 75/27)
- CCCLVII (357°) Gruppo da 75/27 G.a.F. (?x 75/27)
- 153ª Batteria da 75/13 (4x 75/13)

X Corpo d'Armata

17ª D.f. "Pavia"
26° Rgt. Art.
(no detail)

27ª D.f. "Brescia"
1° Rgt. Art. Celere
- I/1°cel Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- III/1°cel Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)

185ª D.par. "Folgore"
185° Rgt. Art.
- II/185° Gruppo da 47/32 (8x 47/32)
- III/185° Gruppo da 47/32 (8x 47/32)

XXI Corpo d'Armata

25ª D.f. "Bologna"
205° Rgt. Art.
- I/205° Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- II/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)
- III/205° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)

102ª D.mot. "Trento"
46° Rgt. Art.
- I/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- II/46° Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- III/46° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27-06)
- IV/46° Gruppo (?x 75/27 & 75/13)

XX Corpo d'Armata

101ª D.mot. "Trieste"
21° Rgt. Art.
- I/21° Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- II/21° Gruppo da 100/17 (?x 100/17)
- III/21° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)
- 5ª/21° Batteria da 75/50 (4x 75/50)

132ª D.cor. "Ariete"
132° Rgt. Art.
- I/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)
- XXXI (31°) Gruppo da 88/55 (?x 88/55)
- DI (501°) Gruppo da 90/53 (?x 90/53)
- DLII (552°) Gruppo Semoventi (?x Semoventi da 75/18 )

133° D.cor. "Littorio"
133° Rgt Art.
- II/3° Gruppo da 75/27 (?x 75/27)
- XXIX (29°) Gruppo da 88/55 (?x 88/55)
- DLIV (554°) Gruppo Semoventi (?x Semoventi da 75/18 )
- DLVI (556°) Gruppo Semoventi (?x Semoventi da 75/18 )
- CCCXXXII (332°) Gruppo da 100/17 G.a.F. (?x 100/17)
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#7 User is offline   david 

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 04:19 PM

Davide.

I've got family coming round for a birthday celebration. So I'll look at this later, much later.

But consider this at least a provisional BIG WOW! :)

Perhaps you can find the time to double check it all, do G.a.F & 10th Armata tomorrow!
:wink: :) (Joke).

David.
Cheers; Dave.

#8 User is offline   david 

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 03:42 PM

Davide.

Truly a splendid work. Thanks for your efforts. :)

In all seriousness, G.a.F & 10th Armata would be useful. Please.

In the meantime, some comments.

Re 01/04/41. 2 of the 3 C.C Compagnia in Bologna I have as armed with 37mm German PaK 35/36. Only one has 47/32. Your comments?

III/24 Ragg. Their guns never left Italy according to my sources. This would tie in with their personel being used to raise I/26.

II/12. Where did the 105/28's come from?


Loads more, but I'll let you answer these first! :wink: :)

THANKS AGAIN! :D :D
Cheers; Dave.

#9 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 04:34 PM

david said:

Re 01/04/41. 2 of the 3 C.C Compagnia in Bologna I have as armed with 37mm German PaK 35/36. Only one has 47/32. Your comments?
III/24 Ragg. Their guns never left Italy according to my sources. This would tie in with their personel being used to raise I/26.
II/12. Where did the 105/28's come from?


Unfortunately I can only answer "no idea" to all three. The Storia tells only what I wrote, and Montanari usually does not deal with minute details below Gruppo level. Sorry!
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#10 User is offline   david 

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 06:57 PM

O.K

September 1941.

9th Raggrupamento D'Artiglieria.

Never heard of this unit being in North Africa before now. :? Tell me more. :)
Cheers; Dave.

#11 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 09:53 PM

david said:

Never heard of this unit being in North Africa before now. :?


It seems a well-kept secret, since Montanari does not list it :D

Cappellano (Le Artiglierie del Regio Esercito) lists it as extant on 16 June 1943 with 11ª Armata, having 33° (XXXIII) and 46° (XLVI) Gruppi da 105/28 [so it is possible that XLIV is a typo. I had erased XLIV from its old 16° Rgrp, thinking it was transferred; maybe it had to be reinstated there] and additionally the two 149/13 Gruppi are present too, but at Napoli.

So, it seems it never went to Africa :D

(I told you I didn't do any crosscheck...)


david said:

Tell me more. :)


I can only show you the scan, to prove I was not dreaming.
BTW I see now I forgot the 240mm units.


Addendum: someone just told me that on the 1-apr-41 table, Ariete division, 9ª/32° [I should have written 9ª/132°] Batteria da 20/65 never existed. Maybe that was just a plan. OTOH the same source told me the Ariete's un-numbered 37/54 battery had 12 pieces, not 10.

Attached File(s)


Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#12 User is offline   david 

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 10:43 PM

Davide.

Thanks for the clarification re 9 Ragg.

I never thought for a second that you dreamt it up :wink: :)



Are you going to include the 240mm units at a later date?

Re Ariete @ 01/04/41 I had 7th, 8th & an un-numbered 20mm CA Batteries. Therefore 9th seemed logical, but if as your friend suggests, 9th did not exist. 6th perhaps?

The 37/54 Batterie was a new one for me! Is that an Italian gun? the calibre & 'L' make me think it was German perhaps?


Spring 1942.

CCCXLIII Gr G.a.F. This unit was on 77/28 earlier in it's history. Therefore the 105/28's must be re-builds (or perhaps an error). Any thoughts.
Cheers; Dave.

#13 User is offline   Il Siciliano 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:55 AM

Where did you get all that information?
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#14 User is offline   david 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:58 AM

I.S.

If Davide will permit me to quote him...

Quote

Based upon Storia della Artiglieria Italiana, Parte V, Volume XVI.



(see the top of this thread).
Cheers; Dave.

#15 User is offline   Dili 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 04:35 AM

I suppose the 240mm Bombarda stayed in Italy. Is that so?
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#16 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 05:04 AM

david said:

Re Ariete @ 01/04/41 I had 7th, 8th & an un-numbered 20mm CA Batteries. Therefore 9th seemed logical, but if as your friend suggests, 9th did not exist. 6th perhaps?


Negative. All the batteries inside a divisional Art Rgt were numbered consecutively, so:

- I/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) => 1ª, 2ª, 3ª Batteria
- II/132° Gruppo da 75/27 (12x 75/27-06) => 4ª, 5ª, 6ª Batteria
- 7ª/132° Batteria da 20/65 (8x 20/65) etc.

If your independent source confirm the Storia, then both of you are correct.

(unless your source, unbeknown to you, blindly trusted the Storia... :wink: )


david said:

The 37/54 Batterie was a new one for me! Is that an Italian gun? the calibre & 'L' make me think it was German perhaps?


:shock:
37/54 was the standard Regia Marina medium LAA gun. A few of them were also used by Regio Esercito. Not many, since it was a bulky (and not very succesfull) weapon.


david said:

CCCXLIII Gr G.a.F. This unit was on 77/28 earlier in it's history. Therefore the 105/28's must be re-builds (or perhaps an error). Any thoughts.


Again, I can only scan the relevant part:

Attached File(s)


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#17 User is offline   Davide Pastore 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 05:17 AM

Dili said:

I suppose the 240mm Bombarda stayed in Italy. Is that so?


It seems so.
At least, Cappellano don't write anything about their use in ASI.
Davide

"Solo se la vostra visione va oltre quella del vostro maestro,
siete adatti per ricevere e tramandare la trasmissione."

(Massima Zen)
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#18 User is offline   david 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 07:40 AM

Davide.

Thanks for the clarification re the Battery numbering within Divisional Artillery Regiments.

The 37/54. Was being bulky it's only drawback? As I said, I'm not familiar with this gun.

I see that the Storia also breaks the units down by Battery. This info would be of great use to me. Would you be prepared to answer questions concerning a few units at a time? (I appreciate that it would be a time consuming operation).

And finally, a question regarding the El Alamein section.
CCCLVII G.a.F. This is interesting, as I have 350 - 355. There must also have been a 356, do you have any info on it, in the G.a.F section?

Cheers! :)

David.
Cheers; Dave.

#19 User is offline   FB 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:50 AM

david said:

...

The 37/54. Was being bulky it's only drawback? As I said, I'm not familiar with this gun.

...


If I may jump in about this gun.

As Davide said it was the Regia Marina standard medium (automatic) AA gun. As a comparison, just to give you an idea of the kind of "family" this weapon was, it was sort of similar to the Bofors 40mm AA gun. The 37/54mm AA gun was a Breda project.

On ships there were both liquid cooled (older model) and air cooled mounts (newer model, much lighter than the other), single or double tube mounts.

The double liquid cooled mount was known as 37/54 mod. 32.

The main problem of this weapon was its rigid mount, a problem shared also by the 20mm AA guns (both Breda and Scotti-Isotta Fraschini). The rigid mount was very heavy because it had to withstand the quite strong recoil forces of the firing weapon. Also the base where the mount was placed had to be strong enough. This traslated into two problems: weight of the weapon and vibrations during firing. This limited its adoption to larger ships, namely Battleships and Cruisers. DD's could't stand the forces generated by the firing weapon. As a comparison: the forces transmitted to the deck of a 37/54 double mount (rigid) were comparable to those generated by a binary 100/47 turret (which had, of course, a deformation mount).

The weapon itslef (like the 20mm) was gas operated, with a fixed gun tube and oscillating lock. It was fed by the usual Italian system i.e. a plate containing 6 rounds. These could be fed without interruptions during firing missions, and that gave a theoretical cyclic rate of 200 round/min. The practical rate was of 140 rounds/min though. Maximum range was about 7.000 meters, with a practical range of 4.000 meters. The feeding was from the top of the weapon, on mod. 32s mounts. Gun crew was composed of 7 men.

In 1938 was introduced the air cooled version, wich weighted 4.3 tons, insted of the 5 tons of the liquid cooled (data refer to double mounts, prestabilized: the typical Battleship or Cruiser mount).

This newer mounts were then choosen as standard, and production of mod. 32 was ended in 1939.

A special version (and here we are nearing the RE version) was studied for the new Littorio class Battleships and for the two Doria class battleships.

It was a single tube weapon, mounted on a vertically sliding mount on the ships' deck. It was a rollaway (a scomparsa in Italian) mount. When not in action, the weapon was closed underneath the deck.

Obviously this sort of mount was much more delicate then the other, and this - in order to lower the efforts of the mechanism, brought to the adoption of a recoiling mount. The weapon was hence mounted on a cradle (culla in Italian, but this is almost for sure the wrong term in English) where the trunnions were linked. Obviously also recoil brake was also used. The limited recoil (10 cm) was capapble of greatly enhance the weapon performances (much less vibrations).

From this single tube rollaway mount was derived a new mount, also single tube, with a more standard platform mount.

This weapon, weighting only about 2 tons had finally recoil forces transmitted to the ship's deck where it was mounted light enough to allow its adoption (with care: it wasn't anyway a light wepon) also on DDs that, until then, had to limit their AA waponry to 20mm max.

And finally, from this last weapon, was derived another version, which is very probably the one indicated in the ToEs. To the single tube paltform mount was added a protection shield. This gun was used in fixed AA Btys both by Regia Marina and Regio Esercito.

Single tube mounts were fed from the side and not from the top, like the "doubles" (the gun was mounted rotated of 90°).

The gun crew of this last weapon was 7 men, also.



Best regards

P.S.: source: Erminio Bagnasco, Le Armi delle Navi Italiane nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, Albertelli.
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#20 User is offline   david 

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:56 AM

Thank you FB
Cheers; Dave.

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