[david]

Thanks guys.

It is not clear to me from the article if the whole Regiment (847 men) went to North Africa or just the VI Gruppo Squadrone?

[Dili]

Quote

In Italian, is 'Gruppo SquadronI'.
A squadrone is singular, squadroni is plural. Of course 'gruppo' (group) means more than one squadron.

Thanks for correcting my incorrect correction

david gruppo squadroni mitraglieri means several, i think 3-4 mitraglieri squadron each 12 machine guns. This isn't part of the Regiment main unit - that madmike listed the TOE- but an independent unit that most likely was born from Regiment Depot. This is like the autoblindo, light tanks squadrons and other units that came from Cavalry Regiment depots.
For example the III Gruppo Nizza Cavalry with L6 light tanks that went to Ariete. This was an unit that was formed in Nizza Cavalry Regimental depot. While the Regiment main unit was probably with classic Horse composition somewhere else.

[madmike]

that is. Is a 'ad hoc' unit, formed for being sent in AS.

[arturolorioli]

madmike, on 20 August 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

so, was a cavalry unit, of course the horses never went in AS, so i think there were only infantry on foot, with a small number of trucks for transport of weapons and ammo (like the AS42 infantry companies)

Basicaly correct. The Italian Cavalry Regiments did operate during WW2 in three basic types of formation.

The basic formation was the original prewar, mounted regiment itself (HQ Squadron, MMG Squadron, two Squadrons Groups with two "sabre" squadrons each). Many of them ended up as garrison troops in the Balkans.

The second type of formations were newly mobilized Squadrons Groups, that could be foot, armoured etc. Mostly they didn't serve with the parent regiment and were, for all practical purposes, independent units.

The third type of formations were the Road Movement Battalions (the only Italian cavalry units named as "battalions", AFAIK, as the traditional name for cavalry battalions was "Squadrons Group").

A reasonably complete list of the independent cavalry Squadron Groups and Bns is as follows :

From "Nizza" Cavalry Regiment:
51st Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
132nd (later 3rd) Armoured Recon Squadrons Group (1941)
3rd L-6 Tank Squadrons Group (1942)
4th Armoured Cars Squadrons Group (1942)
5th Armoured Squadrons Group (1942)
4th Road Movement Battalion
9th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Piemonte Reale" Cavalry Regiment :
52nd Foot Squadrons Group (1940)

From the "Savoia" Cavalry Regiment :
1st Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
2nd Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
20th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
24th Foot Squadrons Group (1942)
6th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Genova" Cavalry Regiment :
4th MMG Squadrons Group (194?)
39th MMG Squadrons Group (194?)
3rd Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
4th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
53rd Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
54th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
55th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
19th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
27th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
29th Foot Squadrons Group (1942)
11th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Novara" Lancers Regiment :
5th Foot (later MMG) Squadrons Group (1940)
6th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
16th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
25th Foot Squadrons Group (1942)
3rd L-6 Tanks Squadrons Group (1942)

From the "Aosta" Lancers Regiment :
6th MMG Squadrons Group (194?)
8th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
9th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
13th Foot Squadrons Group (194?)
57th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
21st Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
23rd Foot Squadrons Group (194?)
30th Foot Squadrons Group (194?)
31st Foot Squadrons Group (194?)
26th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Firenze" Lancers Regiment :
7th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
56th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
3rd Armoured Squadrons Group (1941)
3rd Road Movement Battalion

From the "Vittorio Emanuele II" Lancers Regiment :
10th MMG Squadrons Group (1940)
11th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
18th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
26th Foot Squadrons Group (1942)
2nd Road Movement Battalion
7th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Saluzzo" Light Cavalry Regiment :
58th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
17th Foot Squadrons Group (1941)

From the "Monferrato" Light Cavalry Regiment :
59th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
3rd Armoured Cars Squadrons Group (1942)
4th AT Squadrons Group (1942)
1st Road Movement Battalion

From the "Alessandria" Light Cavalry Regiment :
12th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
13th Foot Squadrons Group (1940) (later 13th Semovemti L-40 Squadrons Group)
3rd L-6 Tanks Squadrons Group (1942)
4th L-6 Tanks Squadrons Group (1942)
8th Road Movement Battalion
12th Road Movement Battalion

From the "Lucca" Light Cavalry Regiment :
16th Replacements Squadrons Group (1943)

From the "Guide" Light Cavalry Regiment :
14th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)

From the "Palermo" Light Cavalry Regiment :
15th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
60th Foot Squadrons Group (1940)
22nd Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
23rd Foot Squadrons Group (1941)
30th Foot Squadrons Group (1942)

Note : the "Foot" Squadrons Groups could actually be named "Foot", "Territorial Foot" or "Coastal Foot", according to their operational use. As in several cases this names changed during the war I have just indicated them as "Foot" for semplicity.

[madmike]

Grazie Arturo, ottimo materiale

[Dili]

Welcome back Arturo.

[david]

Great info from Arturo!

Dili. So just 3 or 4 Squadron(i) Mitraglieri to North africa from Aosta?
And presumably none of the 77/28 guns listed in the linked article?

[Dili]

david, on 21 August 2011 - 11:18 PM, said:

Great info from Arturo!

Dili. So just 3 or 4 Squadron(i) Mitraglieri to North africa from Aosta?
And presumably none of the 77/28 guns listed in the linked article?

Yes
Guns are attached, probably GAF artillery.

Btw if they were expected to operate in a city like Tripoli they might even have the horses.

[arturolorioli]

Dili, on 22 August 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Btw if they were expected to operate in a city like Tripoli they might even have the horses.

Unlikely. The Squadrons Groups had been rised from the beginning as a "Foot" unit, no much sense in converting it back to a horse unit for an infavourable theater like North Africa.

Just IMHO, of course

Dili, on 21 August 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

Welcome back Arturo.

Thanks. It's great to back. I've passed some truly *terrible* years, but it's ripe time to get back to a normal life again ;-).

[Dili]

Quote

Unlikely. The Squadrons Groups had been rised from the beginning as a "Foot" unit, no much sense in converting it back to a horse unit for an infavourable theater like North Africa.

Just IMHO, of course

If they were raised as foot unit yes. And it makes sense to not have horses if they would be expected to operate from desert.

And while for European horses the desert is certainly a problem we shouldn't forget that Savari Cavalry had horses too.

[david]

Quote

Guns are attached, probably GAF artillery.

I wonder if they too came over from Italy with the Aosta, or if they used pre-existing ones from North Africa?

[Dili]

david, on 22 August 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

I wonder if they too came over from Italy with the Aosta, or if they used pre-existing ones from North Africa?

Likely from units in Libya. The ad-hoc force you listed was just the typical bread and butter of war in Libya to defend static positions.
Infantry and or machines guns, some guns, and when available AT and an AA Breda and that was it.

[david]

Thanks.

[david]

Can anyone place a VII Battaglione Bersaglieri (A/P) in North Africa in either 1941 or 2?

I have seen them listed in wargame O.o.B (Most unreliable) but never anywhere else.

[arturolorioli]

david, on 29 January 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Can anyone place a VII Battaglione Bersaglieri (A/P) in North Africa in either 1941 or 2?

IIRC not, it was part of the 1st Bersaglieri Rgt, that never served in NA.

[david]

Thanks. I suspect perhaps it was a typo for 7th Regiment.

[david]

XXVII Battaglione Artieri, 1st Speciale Raggrupamento Genio

I have this unit as arriving in Tripoli @ 14th April 1941 as part of XXI Corpo, but know nothing more about it.

Can anyone help?

[Dili]

I have that it had 2 companies, nothing more about it.

[david]

Thanks.

Do you happen to know what type of Companies they were?

[Dili]

No. But what type of companies can an Artieri Bn have?