Comando Supremo: Sept 43, your choice - Comando Supremo

Jump to content

Icon Message from the Comando Supremo staff

Follow us now on Twitter!


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Sept 43, your choice

Poll: Sept 43 Which side you are ? (75 member(s) have cast votes)

Sept 43 Which side you are ?

  1. R.S.I (46 votes [60.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.53%

  2. Partisans (6 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  3. Kingdom of the South (19 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  4. No sides (5 votes [6.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.58%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 User is offline   Gian 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,499
  • Joined: 23-January 04
  • LocationItaly and Florida

Posted 02 April 2004 - 08:11 AM

RSI or Southern Kingdom? Sincerely, I feel I am not able to say!!
One of my veteran friends was 20 when he decided to follow his old commander, Visconti, into the ANR.

He said: "Among all my family and teachers, there was no one who had not taught me to love Mussolini: the Duce of the Lateran Pacts, the Duce who had built hundreds of schools all over Italy and had defeated malaria.
In particular, my mother had given birth to 10 children and was personally awarded a medal by him. My uncle was a military chaplain in Gondar, where he was wounded by a dum-dum bullet in his jawbone. He survived the injury and was audienced by the Duce as a "Gondar hero". He later spent many years on foreign missions, in particular in India, where he founded a leper hospital.


Other friends of mine have passed through different ordeals: evacuees in Switzerland, prisoners in Germany, England, USA, survivors of Cefalonia...

I think they had no "standing rule" for choosing. Surely they were influenced by some of their belief (although NONE was a die-hard fascist with the Duce's portrait in the bedroom and a candle burning beside it :lol: ). What mostly influenced their choice was the situation in which they found themselves in that moment. Another one was more "emotionally involved" i.e. was very committed to "his Captain" and decided to follow him wherever he went.
0

#42 User is offline   Gian 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,499
  • Joined: 23-January 04
  • LocationItaly and Florida

Posted 08 April 2004 - 12:46 PM

Here's an uncommon bit about RSI, and I would like to get your opinions. Of course I did not want to paint all Italians (or Germans) with the same brush, my intention was to point out some lesser known facts of my knowledge.
Some may sound unbelievable, but as the saying goes, reality is often stranger than fiction...

I've heard of various accounts on the military training of RSI soldiers in the Reich, and it seems that in most cases they had quite an awful impact with this experience: first of all they were still being vexed and looked down on, because of the "treason" still fresh in the Germans' mind.

Second, they could not bear with the very strong discipline imposed in their boot camps.

Third, their provisions were in short supply. As one widespread slogan said, "All wheels turn for victory". It meant that the Armed Forces of the Reich got the priority and others had to tighten their belts: according to some, it was not uncommon to see Italian soldiers scavenging in search of potato scrapings, cabbage stalks and crumbs of bread.

Fourth, when they came back to Italy, they were kinda disappointed by the cold welcome of the Italian population, that generally regarded them as "lackeys" of the Germans.
Maybe this is the origin of a RSI song: "Le donne non ci vogliono più bene perché indossiamo la camicia nera" ("Women love us no longer because we wear the blackshirt").
0

#43 User is offline   Gord 

  • Soldato
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: 12-May 05
  • LocationMilano

Posted 30 June 2005 - 08:46 AM

R.S.I.
0

#44 User is offline   Maximus1 

  • Soldato
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 28-November 04
  • LocationITALY

Posted 01 July 2005 - 08:47 AM

R.S.I.
0

#45 User is offline   falco 

  • Primo Capitano
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 283
  • Joined: 21-April 05
  • LocationRome, Italy

Posted 01 July 2005 - 03:00 PM

Let's suppose I'd been in the Army, my oath had obliged myself to be loyal to the king I had most disliked for having allowed Mussolini to power and having permitted to enter war alongside the "historical enemy". Let's suppose I was in the south, I'd joined, without much enthusiasm, the co-belligerent army, If I'd been in the North in a zone where loyalist troops went partisans (see Piedmont) I'd tried to join them, If deported in Germany I hope I'd been strong enough to refuse joining Nazi Germany in exchange for better food.
I don't think I'd be fighting alongside the German ally, not because I dislike Germans, be clear (much more the contrary, I speak fluent German, have worked there and admire most of what they are able to do), just because they acted, at that time, more like occupier than like allies... So, after all, I choiced partisan.

Anyway, much depended on where, when and with whom you were when the notice of the armistice reached you: I don't think most people were really free to choice

Regards
falco
0

#46 User is offline   Nicholas 

  • Caporale
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: 16-December 04
  • LocationNew York City

Posted 01 July 2005 - 06:59 PM

As an Italian in 1943 Italy, I would have definitely and without question stood with my King. As a man in the armed services, it was the King that I would have pledged allegiance to in my oath upon entering the service, that would not have changed in September 1943.
It seems to me that many of you have confused for whom it was that you would have been fighting for; it was not for Badoglio but for Italy and her legitimate Sovereign. The RSI, no matter how you sell it was not a government recognized by anyone, not the Germans whose puppet it was, not the Allied counties and not the Italians themselves. The King’s mistakes, and don’t get me wrong he made quite a few, do not change what he represented… the embodiment of the one unifying force for Italy. She was never unified before or since.

Remember how many Italians had to die to have the House of Savoia reign over Italy. Did they all die for a foolish mistake?

"... Erano 300 eran giovani e forti e sono morti."
VIVA V.E.R.D.I.
0

#47 User is offline   falco 

  • Primo Capitano
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 283
  • Joined: 21-April 05
  • LocationRome, Italy

Posted 04 July 2005 - 12:51 PM

While it wasn't a foolish mistake to unify the Italian peninsula, recent literature, outside the circuit of the high academy, is starting to question the way it happened... While the U.S. discussed and still discuss quite openly about the Civil War and its consequences, the many contraddictions of our Risorgimento (or annexation of Italy to the Kingdom of Sardinia, if you want to see it from the other end of the perspective) where put under the heavy carpet of the Vittoriano, not being polite to discuss it, dismissing a decade long civil war as "banditism".
This however, is not the right place to debate it, though it would make for an interesting debate in the proper section of this board ;)

Regards
falco
0

#48 User is offline   voloire 

  • Colonnello
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 10-June 05
  • LocationNorthern Italy

Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:28 PM

In italy the question is still alive
the King left Italy and italian people without any guide;
The italian army was left without direction: the only sure news was "the road to Brindisi must be kept free ";
Probably if Umberto II wold had decided to remain in Rome, story would had been different, but he followed his father and Badoglio, and it was the end of Savoia dinasty.
In this situation many people (even not fascists) thought that RSI could be the only way to mantain a little of honor for Italy. For example, X MAS never accepted any influence by germans, and was extremely reluctant to fight against Resistence, theyr main ideal was "Italian honor";
People considered heroes by the fascists decided to join resistence ( for example, Paolo Caccia Dominioni); at the same time relations between partisans ( comunists and non-comunists ) was was not easy: at Porzus Garibaldi Division ( comunists) fired Osoppo Division ( "withe" partisans). The official version was that Osoppo was trying to make a deal with fascists and germans, the real fact was that Osoppo did not accepted to be incorporeted in the Slovenian ( comunist ! ) partisan division
It's clear that, in this situation, take a decision to the part to join was really dramatic...
0

#49 User is offline   apierlu 

  • Soldato
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 07-April 05
  • LocationItaly

Posted 04 July 2005 - 03:12 PM

I think, as others said, that not everyone had the chance to take a decision. One of my grandfathers, for instance, was taken from his home and deported in a German Labor camp in 1944. After the war he managed to come back, mostly by feet or hiking. I can imaging how surprised was my grandmother when he suddenly showed up in 1951, completely unexpected, as noone knew what ever happened to him.
When he was taken away my grandma was pregnant, so at the age of 7 my father got to know his father...
All of this happened in Middle Italy, but I've grown up in Piedmont, Domodossola, and I think I would have joined the partisans.
The city of Domodossola was awarded the gold medal because thanks to the partisans it was freed and set as capitol of the "Repubblica dell'Ossola". They had 40 days of freedom before the Germans sent their troops to retake control of the area (strategically important because confining with Switzerland). Even if its life was short, the Ossolan Republic was taken as an "experiment" to show the feasibility of a Republic in Italy.
And obviously, the german soldiers sent to fight this republic couldn't fight to stop the advance of the allies froom the south...
0

#50 User is offline   Vinman 

  • Maresciallo Capo
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 10-March 04
  • LocationCalgary Canada

Posted 05 July 2005 - 06:38 AM

RSI, no question about it!
Vinman
Vinman
0

#51 User is offline   Veltro 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 996
  • Joined: 10-November 03
  • LocationToronto Canada

Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:58 PM

For me the choice would have been the RSI right or wrong. At hear t would have been protection of family and region-Friuli- from the titoites & Italian communist partisans who wanted to help tito in his anexation of Friuli to Yugoslavia ( can you belive that???? Italians no less!!). I have no love or kinship with Mussolini nor the Nazis, infact the latter I reguard as enemies of Italy & an occupying force.

As for the Duce if he had kept his wits about him he could have extracted Italy from the war although it may very well of still cost him his life. As such he is little better than the "King" or Badaglio.

Lastly Badglio & the King were cowardly & criminal in what they let happen to Italian soldiers in the occupied regions by our erstwhile "allies".

There is no glory in dying for a bankrupt cause.

Eddy
0

#52 User is offline   Nicholas 

  • Caporale
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: 16-December 04
  • LocationNew York City

Posted 06 July 2005 - 02:19 AM

voloire said:

In italy the question is still alive...


Dosen't that say it all? After almost 60 years, people still talk of the King and debate if there should be a return of the monarchy. If the monarchy was such a bad thing, I think that after all this time it would be evident and there wouldn't be any more discussion about it.
The King had the support of the Allies, the British at least and the way I see it that meant fighting for the King was also fighting for the allied side. And fighting for the RSI meant helping the Nazis. I understand about trying to help family caught in the north, but that also would mean hurting families in the south.
VIVA V.E.R.D.I.
0

#53 User is offline   Veltro 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 996
  • Joined: 10-November 03
  • LocationToronto Canada

Posted 06 July 2005 - 03:12 AM

Nicholas said:

voloire said:

In italy the question is still alive...


Dosen't that say it all? After almost 60 years, people still talk of the King and debate if there should be a return of the monarchy. If the monarchy was such a bad thing, I think that after all this time it would be evident and there wouldn't be any more discussion about it.
The King had the support of the Allies, the British at least and the way I see it that meant fighting for the King was also fighting for the allied side. And fighting for the RSI meant helping the Nazis. I understand about trying to help family caught in the north, but that also would mean hurting families in the south.


Fighting for the RSI didn't/doesn't mean helping the Nazis. I am from that region fighting for the Xmas meant fighting for your family & Country. ^There are ambiguities to be sure infact I am facing them as we speak.

For example, I am getting involved in Italian reinacting and will be doing a Decima Mas impresion. The dilema for me is that:

I reguard the Nazis's as enemys of Italy & do not want to be viewed in the same light as them. Being aware of how they murdered unarmed Italian soldiers compounds this feeling of I don't want to be seen to support the very people who have done so much harm to the Italian people. By the same token I want to show another aspect of the war the people who were fighting to protect the families, mine and others to from both internal and external enemys.
For me it seems more complicated than simply putting on a uniform and acting out an impresion. My father has more malice towards the partisans & black brigades than he does to the Germans and he reguards the soldiers of the Decima Mas as ones who stood to protect them from the Partisans, Black shirts & Germans.

Savoy, was/is a criminal of the worst sort because of the lerch he left the Italian people in. If he were hounorable , he would have stayed in Rome and did his best for his subjects. However he choose what was best for Savoy. He is fortunate to have escaped with his head. If he were the king of France his head would have rolled.

How would fighting against Tito and Italian communists have hurt families in the south of Italy who I might add were hurt very badly by the Anglo- Americans (devalueateing the lira, starvation, rampent prostitution, killing indiscriminately, etc...)?
Fighting for the king meant well fighting for the king not for the freedom of Italy or for the hounor of Itlay.

Best Reguards,

Eddy
0

#54 User is offline   Nicholas 

  • Caporale
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: 16-December 04
  • LocationNew York City

Posted 06 July 2005 - 03:03 PM

Eddy,

Fair enough, I can appreciate your cause and the point about the X Mas and the RSI. But as far as the monarchy is concerned, What the King did is wrong and ther was no excuse for it, but you don't get rid of the entire system for the actions of one man. That would be like getting rid of the office of the Presidency here in the US, because of what Nixon did.
VIVA V.E.R.D.I.
0

#55 User is offline   voloire 

  • Colonnello
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 10-June 05
  • LocationNorthern Italy

Posted 06 July 2005 - 03:18 PM

Nicholas said:

Eddy,

Fair enough, I can appreciate your cause and the point about the X Mas and the RSI. But as far as the monarchy is concerned, What the King did is wrong and ther was no excuse for it, but you don't get rid of the entire system for the actions of one man. That would be like getting rid of the office of the Presidency here in the US, because of what Nixon did.


Sorry, but I do not agree.
You are right when you say that is not correct to mix monarchy with what the King made, but it must be rememered that the Italian Army and the italian people was left without any guide, and that was a real crime, considering the number of german soldiers at that moment in Italy.
As I sayd, Umberto II would have had to remain in Rome.

By the way, actually in Italy the question still alive doesn't refer to the return of monarchy, but just about the choice people made in 1943. Since few years ago, the soldiers of RSI were all considered as fascists and, many times, just as criminals.
Now things are changing
0

#56 User is offline   Veltro 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 996
  • Joined: 10-November 03
  • LocationToronto Canada

Posted 06 July 2005 - 03:54 PM

Quote

By the way, actually in Italy the question still alive doesn't refer to the return of monarchy, but just about the choice people made in 1943. Since few years ago, the soldiers of RSI were all considered as fascists and, many times, just as criminals.
Now things are changing


Who considered them all facists? Is this the view throughout Italy or in specific parts of Italy?

One of the most tragic parts of Salo and Mussolini is the brainwashing of children. If you look at photos of the Black Brigades you will see quite a few children ( not teenagers but litteraly children) in them. These were the products of Facism/Salo. My father mentiopned this to me as well. He noted that most of them were kids...this is who the Germans relied on to help them carry out their vicous reprisals agaisnt Italian citizens.

As for Nixon, I always liked him, he was very "misunderstood" :)

Eddy
0

#57 User is offline   voloire 

  • Colonnello
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 10-June 05
  • LocationNorthern Italy

Posted 06 July 2005 - 04:23 PM

just a couple of years ago Italian President mr. Ciampi sayd that was come the time to reconsider the choice of those italians that on 1943 joined the RSI, because, as he declared, many of them were "in good faith".
I don't want to defend Mussolini or what fascism made to Italy.
I just repeat that on 1943 the decision to join one part or another one was simply dramatic, and that many italians had no possibility to choice
0

#58 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

  • Staff
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 2,292
  • Joined: 04-May 03
  • Locationitaly

Posted 13 July 2005 - 07:23 AM

this topic was becoming something of...particular.

a couple of posts had been cancelled and the remnant splitted there:
http://www.comandosupremo.com/forum/vie ... php?t=2710

Moderator

PS satisfied Eddy? :wink:
melius esse quam videri

#59 Guest__*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:40 AM

FOR THE KING!!!
0

#60 User is offline   Don_Giovanni 

  • 2005
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 114
  • Joined: 27-September 05
  • LocationNew Jersey

Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:40 PM

I think that at this point, given the choice, I'd have to chose Army of the South. The King and Badoglio, in my opinion, wounded Italy horrifically, but no honor-code or suicidal chivalry would have me fight in the RSI as a Nazi puppet-state, doomed as it was anyway, to fight for a man whose poor judgments ruined my nation.

That also being said, the king fleeing Rome was cowardly. By not ordering the proper, specific commands to the army to defend itself against the Germans after the armistice was a tragedy. I'd say heck with both of them, to be quite honest, but could never support the Nazi regime, even as a Republican combatant. The atrocities which occured during the RSI days and the vicious crimes against the Italian people by the Black Brigades and the Germans is no incentive to believe in the Axis cause.

Up until 1943, the government was legitimate and the Italian war effort was reasonable in terms of honor and moral conduct (unlike the Germans), even if inevitably lost. By 1943, both Mussolini and the King had damaged their credibility beyond being worth my allegiance.

So with all this in mind, where honor is lost whichever side you're on, the REALLY important thing kicks in, nevermind glory and prestige, but survival!

Don Giovanni
0

Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users