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expansion limits

#1 User is offline   Gallo 

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 06:43 AM

does any one know what areas italy was to annex or hold after the (successful) war?

or was it simply 'conquer as we go'?
"Corri alle armi, e dimostra la tua tenacia, il tuo coraggio, il tuo valore!"
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#2 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 01:14 AM

Well during the war Italian troops occupied the Dalmation coast and greece minus athens and thessalonika. I know that Montenegro and parts of macedonia were added to Albania, Egypt was also to become italian after the war.
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#3 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 05:50 PM

well, we could face it in two ways...

first: look at annexions...Italy annexed at its own territory west slovenia and the largest part of dalmatic coast, annexed the Kosovo and part of Epirus to Albania. A Savoia had to be placed on Croatia throne and Montenegro had to be joined in a way or another.
French terriotories were never formally annexed but it was thought for Tunisia, Corsica and Nice.

second: there's an interesting 1940 document about italian worldwide projects. Document is dated July 4 1940 and lists:
annexion of Nice, Corsica, Corf¨ and Malta, italo french border on Varo river.
annexion of north Epirus (Ciamuria) to Albania
italian interest on Cyprus
enlargement of Zara enclave.
annexion of Tunisia, Gibuti and Somaliland.
end of british control on Egypt and Sudan and substitution with an italian one.
formation of four indipendent states in Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, all linked to Italy by an alliance and hosting italian military bases.
end of Anglo-Iraqi alliance
italian control on Suez Channel and Middle East Oil.
end of british control on Kuwait, Oman, Bahrein and Aden and substitution with an italian one

again:
Gibraltar to Spain
support to Hungary and Bulgaria territorial claims
creation of an Italian base on Atlantic...
melius esse quam videri

#4 User is offline   Dominick 

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 11:29 PM

Athens was partially occupied by Italian troops. I have a picture of an Italian soldier outside the parthenon there, and I've read that Jews fled from the German occupied section to the Italian section of Athens to avoid being rounded up.
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#5 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 05:18 PM

Dominick said:

Athens was partially occupied by Italian troops. I have a picture of an Italian soldier outside the parthenon there, and I've read that Jews fled from the German occupied section to the Italian section of Athens to avoid being rounded up.

the question is about which territories had to be directly absorbed in italian state, not about which territories had been occupied by italian troops...
melius esse quam videri

#6 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 02:29 AM

interesting stuff Lupo i didnt know that Italy wished to gain anything from the mideast after the war.
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#7 User is offline   Nicholas 

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 08:55 PM

I would have thought that all of Savoia would be taken from France?!? Isn't that what alot of the fighting between France and Italy in 1938 was about?
VIVA V.E.R.D.I.
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#8 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 17 April 2005 - 04:57 AM

Posted Image

Kinda goofy lookin but all the light blue is Annexed or occupied by italy
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#9 User is offline   Gallo 

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 01:44 AM

goofy looking is fine by me, bearcat!

i was also under the impression italy was to annex corsica and parts of mainland france. i remember reding that the boundry was to be a river. the name, however, eludes me.

cheers.

gallo.

you can also see on this map the division of crete i asked about on an earlier post. cheers again.
"Corri alle armi, e dimostra la tua tenacia, il tuo coraggio, il tuo valore!"
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#10 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:25 AM

Yeah theres also a strip of land next to the turkish border occupied by german troops kinda of curious haha

Could it be the Rhone or the one Lupo mentioned the Varo??
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#11 User is offline   Gallo 

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:47 AM

looks like it was the rhone. italian troops occupied the area after the french defeat.

wonder what was to happen to malta and cyprus? shared like crete perhaps?
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#12 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:46 PM

mmm,no italy had never thought to annex totally not-italian areas as Marseille or Toulon...why should? had no more interest than germans in annexing Paris. The always desired border was on Varo river. don't confuse wartime military occupation with peacetime definitive incorporations...

Malta had to be incorporated
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#13 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 03:33 AM

Found this map of the italo-French border in WW2

http://forum.axishis...pic.php?t=74423

Scroll to the bottom
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#14 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 07:57 AM

ehmm, no it's the border between italian and german occupation zone in France in 1943. it's different
melius esse quam videri

#15 User is offline   Veltro 

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 05:43 PM

I found this jpeg of a map in Rome display by Mussolini. It represents the empire under Trajan....I suppose this was his goal.

Eddy

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#16 User is offline   Bearcat 

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 12:04 AM

Yeah that was the Empire in 117, Trajan was a good emperor
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#17 User is offline   Gian 

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:23 AM

Benito must have been completely mad if he thought he would achieve such a result in his lifetime... :lol:
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#18 User is offline   Lupo Solitario 

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 10:51 AM

...and, in my opinion, he was not.
Also if anglos are usually amused by the Roman Empire stuff, I believe that was mainly propaganda. The REAL target was to build an ITALIAN (and not roman...) empire based on control of Med Sea access, of Middle East Oil and of Balkanic and African resources on the british (paradoxally) model...no interest in cutting france in pieces or similiar. There was no more interest in an Italian Marseille than there was in a German Paris, France had to be lowered, not cancelled. Idem for UK
melius esse quam videri

#19 User is offline   DaCrab 

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 03:15 AM

Quote

Yeah theres also a strip of land next to the turkish border occupied by german troops kinda of curious haha

Realities of geopolitics: Turks don't like Bulgarians (or Italians, for that matter). Italians aren't too fond of Bulgarians, either. Romanians don't care for any of them (especially not Hungary). Germany, trying to woo Turkey to the Axis, provides buffer zone between Bulgaria and Turkey. Also notice the German buffer zones between the Romania/Bulgaria/Italy juncture and the Italian and Bulgarian portions of Greece.
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#20 User is offline   XXVI Panzer-Division 

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:58 PM

Italy never really had actual claims (correct me on this if you will). The truth is, Malta and the Dalmatian coast were claimed by Italy (well, put under their demands) because Malta is important for controlling the Mediterranean sea, just like Gibraltar and Dalmatia because Mussolini just wanted more land, and for the Dalmatian sea to be his 'lake'
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