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most successful navy

#61 User is offline   Lele 

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 11:54 PM

Vince, pg,
c'mon guys don't go into personal issues and stay on the subject.
thanks
Lele
"Mi scaglio a Ruina"
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#62 User is offline   pg 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 12:11 AM

Vince, I have never stated that G&M pre-ceeded Sadkovich....how else would they quote him in the bibliography for their war in the Med book?????????????? As for the money thing, yes I was buying a house and now I have it it needs serious money spending.....I assume you think I just lie outright....if you want to check out some of my race exploits chechout the link....http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml
or this.....http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml
as for the house....sadly I have a taste for restoring old houses (current one is 1810) and they cost as much as I can afford at the minute (cars come first!!!!!), but as I mentioned in my earlier post, I have contacted someone in the States about postage to Europe for the Sadkovich book and if its even vaguely reasnoble then I will have read it by this time next month!
Instead of this confrontation about other matters, perhaps you'd like to comment on my last post (and your own accepted figures)about the Luftwaffe 60-40 kill ratio compared to the RA......or should I say home nation versus the token airforce from abroad?
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#63 User is offline   pg 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 12:14 AM

The links didnt work.....D'oh! Type em in and see last years wins :D
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#64 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 01:30 AM

pg said:

.....I assume you think I just lie outright....

yes, in keeping with your British heritage.

pg said:

if you want to check out some of my race exploits chechout the link....http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml
or this.....http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml


cool, nice to know who the hell you're talking to. I can't find your results however, I know their in there but I need your help. You should let us know more often how you're doing, very interesting, thank you.

pg said:

as for the house....sadly I have a taste for restoring old houses (current one is 1810) and they cost as much as I can afford at the minute (cars come first!!!!!), but as I mentioned in my earlier post, I have contacted someone in the States about postage to Europe for the Sadkovich book and if its even vaguely reasnoble then I will have read it by this time next month!


Yes I own a beautifully restored turn of the century home in the downtown Calgary, constructed in 1910, I understand how expensive these homes can be to maintain, however I recently spent $450US on a NM copy of Amz Spiderman #129 1st Punisher.

pg said:

Instead of this confrontation about other matters, perhaps you'd like to comment on my last post (and your own accepted figures)about the Luftwaffe 60-40 kill ratio compared to the RA......or should I say home nation versus the token airforce from abroad?


Certainly, the Luftwaffe’s appearances in the Mediterranean were sporadic. While the Luftwaffe was in the Mediterranean it was busy attacking Malta-bound convoys while the RA was stretched thin doing the day-to-day thankless tasks of convoy escort, patrolling the skies and borders of Italy, the colonies and occupied areas. It was a similar case for land operations in NA, while Rommel was off making headlines, the Italians were fully committed behind the frontlines occupying new areas and trying to figure out a way to supply a reckless German Field Marhsal as he created logistical nightmares. Rommel owed much of his success in NA to Italian logistics.
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#65 User is offline   Jim H 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 07:57 PM

Vince Tassone said:

pg said:

.....I assume you think I just lie outright....

yes, in keeping with your British heritage.


Vince, stop with the nation bashing. We've been through this before.

Jim
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#66 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 08:21 PM

Jim H said:

Vince Tassone said:

pg said:

.....I assume you think I just lie outright....

yes, in keeping with your British heritage.


Vince, stop with the nation bashing. We've been through this before.

Jim
Webmaster


Jim it was meant in a slight humors way and I believe the tone of the rest of the message clearly conveyed that. Just contact me directly if you think there's a problem.

Best Regards,


Vince
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#67 User is offline   Jim H 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 09:04 PM

Vince,

I was contacted privately by others who didn't think that. I understand it is hard to display feeling in text, but lets all try to display lightheartedness a little more tactfully.

Jim
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#68 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 09:31 PM

Thanks Jim,
If pg felt slighted or hurt by what was intended as a humors post, then perhaps he may have discussed the issue openly instead of working indirectly ? Oh well, perhaps he shouldn't have picked a fight. Thanks anyways.

Vince
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#69 User is offline   pg 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 11:16 PM

No Vince, not hurt.....have a very thick skin!!!!!But Ive received 2 PMs from other users who ask me why I bother debating with you when you post in such a manner.......will resume this one at a later date as bed and work beckon!
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#70 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 11:30 PM

pg said:

No Vince, not hurt.....have a very thick skin!!!!!But Ive received 2 PMs from other users who ask me why I bother debating with you when you post in such a manner.......will resume this one at a later date as bed and work beckon!


oh pg, having others doing the talking for you doesn't enhance your image much. btw i've received a similar number of PMs conveying the same kinds of feelings about your own post, particuarly kittyhawk and racial remarks regarding Italians in the past ? there you go i guess, it depends on how you look at it. and pls calm down.
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#71 User is offline   kittyhawk2 

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 12:55 PM

oh vince, i dont recall any such alleged racist remarks but whatever.

i see youre a comics fan. me too, primarily dc rather than marvell. know any good sites where i can get an idea of values? dont reckon e bay is up to much for comics.

pg, i see you do sprints and hill climbs. me too - but mostly in the south. there are a couple of northern events i could do that might be in your championship. it would be good to meet up (perhaps we could discuss our inherent bias?) - do you do any events at Harewood, Aintree or Angelsey? Im also doing the Bugatti owners club meeting at Prescott in July (assuming they let me in in my MG) if thats on your calender?

ps got a copy of Sad's article on Albania on pdf if you fancy a taster?
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#72 User is offline   Jim H 

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 01:00 PM

lets stay on topic.

#73 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 03:45 PM

kittyhawk2 said:

oh vince, i dont recall any such alleged racist remarks but whatever.

glad to know you're you're ashamed of it, Jim you will recall needed to delete the post ?

kittyhawk2 said:

i see youre a comics fan. me too, primarily dc rather than marvell. know any good sites where i can get an idea of values? dont reckon e bay is up to much for comics.

ebay priamarly, provided the comic book vendor is reputable (99% - 100% feedback), otherwise grading may vary widely, what's claimed sometimes as NM winds up being VF +/-, sometimes F. komiczone on ebay is the most accuaret wrt to grading, James Payette a former CGC employee.

Yes I agree, lets stay on topic.
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#74 User is offline   pg 

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 12:01 AM

Vince, the supposed racist comment by Kittyhawk was a quote and he made it clear at the time that it was...and has done so at least once before when yo made this ridiculous accusation...only you have bothered harping on about this. You will be pleased to know that I now own the Sadkovich navy book thanks to Veltro....cheers Eddy :wink:
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#75 User is offline   Vince Tassone 

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 12:32 AM

That's great to know you purchased a copy of Sadkovich's book, its a good read and I'm sure you'll enjoy it - which ever way you interpret it. In regard to kittyhawk's comments, as I recall the statement and the context in which it was framed were wholly inappropriate - I found his whole post offense as had others - and was thus deleted. You can not conveniently brush this fact under the rug. And you're wrong, I've not been the only one harping on it, I've mentioned it in my posts but its continually talked about. Now can we get back to the main topic of discussion or must we waste valuable server space talking about nonsense.
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#76 User is offline   redcoat 

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 11:39 PM

Vince Tassone said:

gentlemen calm down, one of the points of scuttling a vessel (besides avoiding capture) is to deny the enemy victory.

How is scuttling your own ship denying the enemy victory????
Is the ship any less sunk??? :roll:
:lol:
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#77 User is offline   Tiornu 

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 01:58 PM

I think this idea has real possibilities. If you scuttle all your largest ships, you can deny the enemy a really big victory.
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#78 User is offline   SUPERMARINA 

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Posted 07 September 2005 - 12:06 PM

Hello Gentlemen,
hi Tiornu, it's fine to be able to hear you again.

I believe the subject of this forum debate (Most Succesful Navy) was someway lost along the path.

As the subject is an important one I'll try to propose it again according the real terms of the matter (and by my point of view, of course):

the only way to judge a military historical problem is by Clausewitz's categories (i.e.to appreciate the original purpose of the parts and the means availabe to get it)

The declared British purpose was, since Oct. 1938, to crush Italy by a swift naval campaign against her "Sugar cake navy".

The Italian one was to broke in the Balkans and the M.E. the deadly effects of the British "Imperial Preference" enclosed commercial system introduced in 1931; this goal was shared with the similar President Roosevelt's policy to open the markets adopted by the USA since 1933; the final encounter of these two similar politic lines was the May 1939 White House meeting between President Roosevelt and Count Vittorio Cini. The bargain was the following one: Italy would obtain, after a Balkan and M.E. crisis (not war) schedueld for Sept. 1939 in Greece, a free hand in these two areas for her economical system; as a consequence of this new balance of powers in the Eastern Mediterranean the British and French M.E. mandate system would have collapsed and the USA would have got, at least, that Jewish state in Palestine as a confederation with the Arab native population they were supporting since late 1916.
The following economical development of these two areas, within the limits of the "Italian" sphere of influence, would have been supported by the USA capitals, first among all in the oil sector.

The British plans for a landing in Rhodes with Turkish troops for Sept. 1939 which had to have, according their whisful thinking programs, a domino effect against Mussolini and, maybe, Hitler himself, was compromised by the sudden Danzig crisis.

The Italian Aug-Sept. 1939 program to mainmise Greece with the Bulgarian help beliving (whisful thinking again) that war was not necessary and Athens would surrender in a fortnight without a single shot failed too.

The following, new British program for a Turkish landing in the Dodecanese is. for May 1940 was torpedoed by the German invasion of France, as Ankara refused to face a German or a Soviet response.

The Admiralty alternatoive plan to attack the Sicilian coasts with an overwhelming force (BB Warspite, Malaya, Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, Bretagne, Provence and Lorainne, not to mention the carrier Eagle) facing two Italian BBs only (Cesare and Cavour) in Mat 1940 was compromised too by the German advance.

The British cabinet had to try that same operation in July 1940 with the Mediterranean Fleet forces only (3 BBs and a carrier) against the same two Italian modernized BBs. The result of that action off Calabria was considered, according Adm. Cunningham own words in the edited version of his report published by the London Gazette in 1948, "very disappointing".
The consequence of this fiasco was that the Royal Navy relinquished the duty to defeat Italy to the Cinderella Service (The British Army).

This strategical change, anyway, imposed a quite longer North African campaign and human losses the political British conservative system could not afford.

The Royal Navy tried to cut the sea supply lanes between Europe and North Africa by her light forces (cruisers, DD, submarines, aircrafts, mines ect.) as a surrogate of the dreamed great Nelson's touch style (and, above all, not expensive) victory at sea which was at the origin of the same 1938 program and aims of war but she failed again for almost three years.

During this time:

Roosevelt and Corden Hull decided, in May 1941, against the advice of Sumner Wells, the Senate and their Chiefs of Staff, to arrive at a crisis with Japan. The British switched in the meanwhile (against Churchill's will and with the support of Eden and of the Conservative diehard bosses) their since Jan. 1939 very prudent policy towards Tokyo just to avoid the political damnation of a separate peace with Italy; the results were
A) the scuttling of the Italian program for a white peace in the Med. with the blessing, guarantee and economical support of the USA,
B) Pearl Harbour
C) Singapore, with the British loss of the by far moreimportant part of Empire.

During the same time, anyway, the British war become more and more an Anglosaxon one and, at least, on 29 March 1943 (the day the British give up their sea trade control as their merchant fleet was unable, after three years of submarine warfare, to supply the UK, accepting forever, since that day, the USA dominance about sea traffic and strategy worldwide) an American one.

The last British hope for a propaganda success which, according the very optimistic Alan Brooke strategy, would have spared the Empire Washington's dominance, was the very long build up and announced Battle of Mareth, but the brilliant Italian Regio Esercito artillery counter fire on 21 March 1943 smashed the British divisions an half hour before the "Go" and all the hopes to grasp a final (and, above all, BRITISH only) victory in North Africa were lost.

After 29 March 1943 the war in the Med. was an American affair with a British queue thinner and thinner.

The Sicily landings were possible only as a ciurtesy of the USN (which sent two modern BBs and, later, a carrier) to allow the Royal Navy to pick up, along all the Sevven Seas, the six BBs (with two fast carriers) necessary to cover the landing forces and to get the necessary superiroty condition of 6 versus the only two (Littorio and Vittorio Veneto) Italian BBs active in July 1943.

During the Sicilian campaign the sea lanes were never cut (and this was a further failure, according the naval point of view, of the Royal Navy, who didn't dare to sent between Scylla and Charibdis nothing bigger than a MTB as long as the last German and Italian soldier had leaved for Calabria).

The political collapse of Mussolini which put an end at the Sicilian campaign, with the Germans beginnig since 26 July 1943 their retreat toward the Continent, is an other matter.

Moral: by the strategic and historical prospective the Italian Navy success is absolute.

Bye

EC

I'm going to discuss this subject only by historical terms quoting sources. If some guy is going to protest, like in the past, simply whistling Rule Britannia and this kind of stuff my answer can be only Churchill's one: "Publish and be damned". EC
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