[Arditi]

...to centralize the discussion...add pertinent information/photos here.

[Arditi]

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Litlwilli's, Lido photos of their bayonet collection from previous posts...
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•  2nd_crop.jpg (46.35K)
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•  long_view_2.jpg (23.94K)
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[Arditi]

photo of me at the rifle range last summer...TS M91 bayonet. The model with the unusual locking button.

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[Arditi]

closer look...TS M91 bayonet...

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•  20031119205446_SideMtBayo1.jpg (48.1K)
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[Lido]

--- Hi Arditi, Your picture of the Mod.1891TS bayonet is great. This type of bayonet is identical with the well-known Mod.1891 bayonet, except for the locking mechanism. It is a side mount bayonet. The press stud is located at the end [back] of the diagonal pommel. The groove which attaches the bayonet to the rifle is across the pommel. The bayonet lug is different and the weapon cannot accept the usual Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet, it will accept only the Mod.1891TS bayonet. "TS" is the short of "Truppe Speciali". If I'm not wrong the bayonet was originally named "Sciabola-Baionetta Modello 91 da Moschetto per Truppe Speciali". The Mod.1891TS bayonet is actually a variation of the Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet. It is a rare bayonet with a higher value than the usual Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet. --- Note: I will get soon a Mod.1891TS bayonet. I'm going to take close pictures to the unusual locking mechanism and to study it in detail. --- Arditi, can you tell us what markings are stamped on your Mod.1891TS bayonet and their exact location????????? Lido 07/11/04

[Arditi]

Lido, thanks for the additional descriptor on the TS bayonet. The markings on the TS are as follows: at the bottom of the blade near the tang it is marked to "Brescia". Serial and prefix of "AQ4850". Leather scabbard marked A.R.E.T. 1938. That's all I could find.
Best Regards, Arditi By the way, the rifle is a Greek capture with the Greek epsilon marking..."E"...on the receiver...unusual.

[Lido]

Hi Arditi, As you know there are a few types of scabbards for the Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet. It's not unusual to find any type of scabbard on either bayonet [Mod.1891 Carcano and Mod.1891TS]. I don't think that your Mod.1891TS bayonet was issued from the very beginning with the leather scabbard you have it now [marked with "A.R.E.T.1938"]. Your Mod.1891TS bayonet was made before 1938. The bayonet value is not considered according with the type of scabbard is found. The rarest scabbard for the Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet is the scabbard made of smooth blued metal. NOTE: It looks like the original scabbard for the Mod.1891TS bayonet is made of metal, it is fluted with reinforcement bars on both sides and generally painted in black or heavily blued. Lido 07/14/04

[Arditi]

bayonet from the collection of Lido...

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[Arditi]

Lido made the bottom componets from the originals above...amazing machinery work...

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[Arditi]

dug bayonet from the collection of Tankredi...dug from Bavaria. Most likely volksturm usage. Very interesting...

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[Arditi]

again...a close up....M1938 bayonet dug from Bavaria

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[urza1]

My photo shows an arrangement of three Italian Mod.1891 Carcano
bayonets. Bayonet dimensions: - Overall length 413mm [16.2 in]; - Blade
length 299/300mm [11.81 in]; - Blade width [at the crossguard] 25.5mm; -
Blade thickness [at the crossguard] 4.8/5.0mm; - Muzzle ring diameter
13.3mm [0.51 in].

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_1.jpg (17.44K)
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[urza1]

I arranged for my photo four Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonets. This
type of bayonet has a single-edged blade which is heavily blued or has a
red-brown color [especially if the bayonet was manufactured during WW2].
Both sides of the blade have fullers. The wooden grips are secured to
the blade tang by two steel rivets. The diagonal pommel has the
conventional locking mechanism [bolt, spring, nut] and a "T" groove.

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_2.jpg (30.03K)
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[urza1]

My photo shows the serial numbers stamped on the left side of the
crossguard of two Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonets. The bayonet from
left was issued to the Italian infantry ["Fanteria"], note the serial
number "F2280". The bayonet from right was issued to "Bersaglieri"
elite troops, note the serial number "B5323". Please also note the deep
square-ended fullers which are typical for the Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet.

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_3.jpg (34.09K)
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[urza1]

My photo shows the left side of the crossguard of an Italian
Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet. The crossguard is stamped with "ROCCA 1941".
This bayonet had no grips when I got it but I made some very nice
aluminum grips for it. Note in my photo the two transverse rivets [under
the crossguard] which secure the crossguard to the blade tang. Only the
pommel is brazed to the blade tang, not the crossguard. The crossguard
is straight with the muzzle ring at one end and a small ball at the
other end [quillon]. NOTE: When making grips for this type of bayonet,
the grips require scallops to fit properly in place. The blade tang has
two holes for the original steel rivets which secured the wooden grips.
To secure the new aluminum grips I made for this particular bayonet, I
used two screws [not rivets].

Lido 07/19/04

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[urza1]

This close-up photo shows better both rivets which secure the
crossguard to the blade tang. Note the markings stamped on the left side
of the crossguard: "ROCCA 1941". This Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet
had light rust all over. To stop the rust to destroy the bayonet I had
to clean it very well. Note the light pitted areas.

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_5.jpg (41.58K)
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[urza1]

To be able to show better these small markings ["ROCCA 1941"]
stamped on the left side of the crossguard of this Italian Mod.1891
Carcano bayonet, I had to take this photo from a very close distance.
The real dimension of these markings is 11mm X 2mm. This bayonet was
made in 1941 [it may look like 1940 but is 1941]. The maker's mark is
"ROCCA". This is a big puzzle for me because I know NOTHING about this
Italian bayonet manufacturer. Anyone who can give me some info about
"ROCCA"???????????????

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_6.jpg (34.06K)
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[urza1]

My photo shows the both sides of the blade tang and the two
transverse rivets which secure the crossguard to the blade tang. When
the grips are secured in place, the transverse rivets connot be seen.
Because this Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet had no grips when I
purchased it, I took this unique photo which shows the complete image of
the transverse rivets. Note the muzzle ring which has a diameter of
13.3mm [0.51 in]. The bayonet blade cannot be seen below the muzzle ring
because I put a piece of white paper right under the crossguard. At the
other end of the crossguard is the small ball [it cannot be seen in my
photo] which is the end of the quillon.

Lido 07/19/04

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•  Photo_7.jpg (13.53K)
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[Lido]

--- I've decided to post here more of my pictures & comments about the Italian Mod.1891 Carcano bayonet. Thanks very much to "urza1" for helping me to post everything. The 7 photos & comments just posted here are part of the previus material which had been posted on the "Image Sharing" forum. Lido 07/20/04

[Arditi]

cool closeups Lido...I have a m91 bayonet that is completely devoid of any markings. No serial number, markers mark or anything else for that matter. The blade blueing is nearly black and I guess could be called black....interestingly the wood handle and crossguard are painted black. This is very old paint and chipping from age...anybody have an idea what a black painted M91 bayonet would be for? I found it at the bottom of a stack of various bayonets and for a modest sum, so I do not believe there was any attempt to deceive, etc. Any thoughts? I apologize for the lack of a photo...camera still down. Regards, Arditi