Comando Supremo: Ansaldo 75/46 and other AA guns. - Comando Supremo

Jump to content

Icon Message from the Comando Supremo staff

Follow us now on Twitter!


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Ansaldo 75/46 and other AA guns.

#1 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 19 May 2004 - 09:54 AM

Do you have any info on the Ansaldo 75/46 gun?

That is: how many (and when) were produced, its performance, who used it. Did they have also AP rounds?

I only know that CSIR had "IV e XIX Gruppi autocampali cannoni c.a. da 75/46" (2 batteries each) during 1941, and then 8th army during 1942 had the "4^o Raggruppamento Artiglieria contraerei" with the two above mentioned AA batalions and other three (XXXVI, XXVII, XXXVIII) with 3 batteries each.

Information on other obscure 75 mm AA guns are very welcome.


Thanks a lot in advance.
0

#2 User is offline   JeffreyF 

  • Generale d'Armata
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 17-September 03

Posted 19 May 2004 - 07:57 PM

There should be a thread in here that has the penetration numbers.

From some notes I have accessable from work the EP round had 90mm penetration but I don't think that's correct. As I believe the other 75mm ep rounds penetrated about 70mm. Maybe this was the improved EP round that used the German nose unit, iirc.

75mm/L46
AP
90mm at 500m at 0
70mm at 1000m at 0
70mm at 500m at 30
55mm at 1000m at 30

As I said it's just something from notes I have at work and probably not correct.
0

#3 User is offline   Franco 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 487
  • Joined: 14-December 03
  • LocationLazio

Posted 20 May 2004 - 09:38 AM

If the EP was Efetto pronto round penetration not change with range, like the actual heat round
0

#4 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 20 May 2004 - 11:01 AM

Thanks to both.

I surfed in previous threads (and in this site, of course) but found only some data on AP penetration (essentially, part of those by JeffreyF).
However, my main question is: how many 75/46 were produced and fielded?

Also the excellent site by VZita (regioesercito) does not give any data on production and usage.
I think they were mainly used in AA defense of Italy since production would be quite limited, and prime mover for such heavy guns were in relatively small numbers (both a guess of mine, of course). Consequently I think that they were quite uncommon in front line units.

Bye.

PS: I don't understand the need of a HEAT round for an AA gun, which has a high muzzle velocity "by definition". It is just enough to have "normal" AP ammo, but I'd wonder if AP shots would be available in 1940 for this gun.
0

#5 User is offline   JeffreyF 

  • Generale d'Armata
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 17-September 03

Posted 20 May 2004 - 04:04 PM

I've read somewhere of use of this gun for anti-tank purposes. Can't recall where, although maybe this is some confusion over the 75/27CK on a truck mount? Does 27 stand for year instead of calibre in this case?

The importance of a HEAT round is ability to cause uniform level of damage to a target at any range. Instead of effectiveness lagging at the longer ranges. As far as why there was a HEAT round? This may have just been an issue that the EP round used by field guns could also be fired by the 75/46? Or maybe in the reported uses of the 75/46 in a direct fire role the AP round was found wanting?
0

#6 User is offline   ADOLPHO87 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 17-March 04
  • LocationPOLAND

Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:14 PM

Hello guys!
I think that this photo may be interesting for this post. This plate was removed from a piece of "junk" that was actually quite a big remains of 75/46 gun. This relic was found at the battlefield near polish city Danzig. There was quite a big battle(1944 or 45) between Russians and German AAand KM artillery, supported by ground troops of the KM, wehrmacht and some soldiers of Nebiogeni.
Regards
Adolpho

Attached File(s)

  • Attached File  plate.JPG (20.32K)
    Number of downloads: 380

0

#7 User is offline   13emeDBLE 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 20-May 04
  • LocationMarseille - France

Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:24 PM

I've read that the production of this canon aa could be evaluated by :

- the 10 first in 1932 ;
- in 10/39, there are 92 pieces dispo (240 in course of being commissionned) ;
- in 09/42, there are 220 pieces (mod 34) and 6 (mod. 34M) for the Regio Esercitio (the Army), the Milice had 45 pieces (mod 40) (92 in january 43).

the munitions of this canon are of three types : against planes (aa mod 34 or 36), "dotato di spolette a tempo piriche o meccaniche" (I'm sorry but translate this technicals terms from italian to english is more than I could do..), or munitions against tanks (introduced in 1942).

this canon has been employed first in the Spanish civil war, and in all the different fronts : North Africa (92 pieces in september 1942), Greece (2 Groups in 1940), Russia (5 Groups in the ARMIR) and Sicilia (8 battery in the Army and Coastal defence, "MACA").

extracts from CAPPELANO "Le artiglierie del Esercito"...

I hope that I'm giving you a beginning of answer...

C.M.
0

#8 User is offline   13emeDBLE 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 20-May 04
  • LocationMarseille - France

Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:33 PM

another extract from the same book :

"Dati tecnici cannone da 75/46 mod.34

- Lughezza bocca da fuoco : 3.450mm
- Peso bocca da fuoco con otturatore : 686 kg
- Peso totale complesso in batteria : 3.330 kg
- Peso totale complesso in ordine di marcia : 4.380 kg
- Peso totale mod.40 in batteria : 2.450 kg (senza congegno di mira)
- settore di tiro verticale : 0+90
- settore di tiro verticale pezzo mod.40 -1+90
- peso granata controaerei mod.34 : 6.5 kg
- celerita di tiro massima : 15 colpi al minuto
- velocita iniziale massima : 750 m/s
- Gittata massima : 13 km
- Ordinata massima : 8.5 km
(...)"
0

#9 User is offline   Franco 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 487
  • Joined: 14-December 03
  • LocationLazio

Posted 20 May 2004 - 09:47 PM

in 75/27 the 27 is sure the calibre not the year was a version of field gun 75/27.
I agree that 75/46 have high velocity rounds and not necessity of EP round, was heat round in italian terminology in WWII, but the first topic speak of EP.


ciao


Franco
0

#10 User is offline   JeffreyF 

  • Generale d'Armata
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 17-September 03

Posted 20 May 2004 - 11:30 PM

The 75/27CK was an anti-aircraft gun and I would imagine a longer calibre barrel would be needed for effective work. Otherwise I'm just making up weapons as I go. :lol:
0

#11 User is offline   Franco 

  • Primo Maresciallo dell Impero
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 487
  • Joined: 14-December 03
  • LocationLazio

Posted 21 May 2004 - 08:43 AM

the 75/27ck born for use in WWI, naturally for effective AA work a longer calibre is best but in WWI was rare long 75mm
0

#12 User is offline   13emeDBLE 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 20-May 04
  • LocationMarseille - France

Posted 21 May 2004 - 09:05 AM

Ok, it's note the same than the 75/46...

The 75/27 ck was created during the WWI (in fact in 1915-1916). It was the most common canon against aircraft (166 pieces in october 1939).

this canon used to be obsolete for antiaircraft purpose in the WWII : initial low velocity (510 m/s), old pointing system, old munitions, limited fire possibility (only +70)...

It was decided before the WWII to remplace it by the 75/46.

in 1942, this 75/27 was put out of the truck used (4x2), and remained on statics units of defense against air attacks ("difesa territoriale").

In 1939, the italians developped another canon, the 75/50, at the same time, they bought some germans 88/55. In 1940, they are 28 pieces 75/50 commissionned for the defense of metropolitan or strategic cities (Roma, Bari and Durazzo).

And in 1939, the Army wanted a canon more powerful than a 75 (even 75/46 or 75/50) against the big bombers (flying at level more than 10.000 m). They decided to adopt the 90/53 (homologated during 1940).

this canon could be motorised (on Lancia-3RO or Breda 51) or static, and would be the only defence against the american air raids (1942-1943).

In 1943, there is a last model of this canon, the 90/53 mod.43. It was the most powerful canon against aircraft, and it is better than the 88 german.

I find some evidence of use against aircraft of 100/47 (By the Navy) or 102/35 (defence of the naval bases).

Best regards,

CM
0

#13 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 21 May 2004 - 09:13 AM

Here is a picture I found on the web: a 75mm AA gun (75/46?) near Sidi Omar in November-December 1941.

Attached File(s)


0

#14 User is offline   13emeDBLE 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 20-May 04
  • LocationMarseille - France

Posted 21 May 2004 - 09:25 AM

Very nice picture... (from Lonesentry : the battle of Sidi Omar no ?)

Yes, this gun looks like a 75/46 (there is some difference of barrel between 75/27; 75/46 and 75/50).

Ciao

CM
0

#15 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 21 May 2004 - 09:30 AM

Comment was cut, I was writing: "However, according to your posts, I could not have AP or HEAT ammo, since it was available since 1942."

Thanks to all, the general picture is becoming more clear!

So, apart from 75/46 in its various models (mod. 34, mod. 34 M and mod. 40) the other 75 mm AA guns were the obsolete 75/27 CK, the 75/50 (only 28(?) built and used for static defense).

I am not at home, but I remember that 75/27 was the 75/27 field gun (mod. 1906 or more probabily mod. 1911) on a candlestick mounting for AA defense. They were built in static positions (75/27 AV ??) and on SPA lorries (75/27 CK ??). It would be nice to know what CK or AV mean.

Some times ago in the site http://www.regioesercito.it I found a reference to 76/40 and 76/45, but no data about them.
0

#16 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 21 May 2004 - 09:36 AM

Yes, it comes from Lonesentry... the english view of the frontier battles during Crusader. It's quite an impressive gun. If AP ammo and good prime mover were available maybe it could have been used as the german 8,8 cm Flak...
0

#17 User is offline   Jim H 

  • Administration
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 1,900
  • Joined: 06-April 03
  • LocationNaples, Italy

Posted 21 May 2004 - 01:15 PM

Michele. I sent you a Private Message. Please respond.

#18 User is offline   13emeDBLE 

  • Tenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 235
  • Joined: 20-May 04
  • LocationMarseille - France

Posted 21 May 2004 - 08:39 PM

Yes, Lonesentry is a very good source.

I have another source for your interrogation on others italians aa guns.

First, I wrote "IN 1940, 28 guns had been comissionned" prioritary for static defence purpose... but italy must produce a lot of it !

I've found a source wich is detailed the different aa guns by location on the 1st January 1943 :

there is :
- 102/35 OTO = total of 230 ;
- 100/47 OTO = total of 41 ;
- 90/53 Ansaldo = total of 459 ;
- 90/42 Skoda = total of 26 ;
- 77/28 Skoda = total of 54 ;
- 76/45 Ansaldo = total of 191 ;
- 76/40 Ansaldo = total of 1213 ;
- 76/30 Ansaldo = total of 13 ;
- 75 Wixhers = 20 ;
- 75/46 Ansaldo = 92 ;
- 75/45 OTO = 4 ;
- 66/47 Skoda = 18 ;
- 37/54 Breda = 280 ;

There are more than 28 guns aa captured from Yougoslavia and Greece and used in Greece and Dalmatia.

You have to add a total of 1964 heavy machineguns aa (from Wicher 40/39 to the Breda 13.2mm) and all the weapons used by the units : a total of 832 guns (544 Germans) and 593 HMGs (344 German's ones).

You have to add the light machineguns aa (three types Breda, StEtienne and Fiat) for a total of 3900 LMGs.

There is 3 trains aa (24 guns and 28 HMGs aa) and 3 barges(12 guns and 14 HMGs aa).

It's difficult to me to give you the differents locations of these weapons (I have the detail by sector of operation), but I guess you will enjoy it...

Best regards

CM
0

#19 User is offline   JeffreyF 

  • Generale d'Armata
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 17-September 03

Posted 22 May 2004 - 12:41 AM

For operation in the direct fire mode where there any optics or was it open sight?

For that matter does anyone know what optics might have been used on the 47/32?

Thanks.
0

#20 User is offline   michele 

  • Sottotenente
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 22-January 04

Posted 25 May 2004 - 02:33 PM

Good data (and even better if there is also the location: where did you found them?), but I don't see any reference to 75/50 (quite strange). Moreover it seems that most of 75mm - 76mm AA gun were Ansaldo 76/40.
Were those guns produced earlier than 75/46?

Thanks.
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


Similar Topics Collapse

  Topic Forum Started By Stats Last Post Info
*New Replies "The Illusion of Victory" Fascist Propaganda and t Books, Film, Audio & other Media Guest_RobJac_* 
  • 0 Replies
  • 2,696 Views
*New Replies Info on Italy and its allies Related Links Guest_Marcus_* 
  • 0 Replies
  • 2,233 Views
*New Replies From "Comando 9a Armata" - Albania, April 23, 1941 Units, Battles and Events Guest_Piercarlo_* 
  • 0 Replies
  • 2,232 Views
*New Replies Assistence provided by the Italian Army to Jews, others Units, Battles and Events Guest_oldrustyknight_* 
  • 3 Replies
  • 1,577 Views
*New Replies german snipers and sharpshooters research World War Two General Discussion Guest_dlowenhamn_* 
  • 0 Replies
  • 1,446 Views

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users