German use of Semoventi at Primosole Bridge?

[jwsleser]

I received a PM asking the following question:

1) Semoventes in German service at Primosole Bridge in Sicily and at the battles around Aprilia (The Factory) at Anzio. I do know some were used by the HG Division but lack details and sources. Kampfgruppe Shmalz supposed had at least one 75/18 and Kampfgruppe Graser may have used a few as well. I have exhausted all areas of research on this possibility which is why I am seeking help from you. I have met with vague answers.

Can anyone assist?

Pista! Jeff

 

[jwsleser]

In scanning Le operazioni in Sicilia e in Calabria pp. 254–256, no Italian armor or armored artillery units are listed as being in the area and available for use at the ponte Primosole. The organization given for the kampfgruppe «Schmalz» doesn't include any Italian elements.

What is your source that any semoventi were present?

Pista! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

The HG in Sicily never used Italian self-propelled guns but no Italian unit ever used them either so it cannot even be assumed that they were Italian vehicles mistaken for German ones. Only from January 1944 did it have 10 in its possession but almost all of them were sold to German infantry units given the low value attributed to Italian vehicles by German tank crews of all arms.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Maurizio

To make sure I understand your statement "... but no Italian unit ever used them either...". In Le operazioni in Sicilia e in Calabria, the OB beginning on p.499 list several unità semv.

If you meant that no Italian units use semv. da 75/18, then I understand and agree. Only two cp. semv. da 75/18 were present on Sicily (pp. 503 and 511), and these lacked personnel and therefore not operational.

This also begs a question. The two units are listed as 4ª cp. semi. da 75/18 and the IV cp. semv. da 75/18. Both are technically the 4th company. Are these in fact the same unit? Or is this a typo and the IV cp. should be the VI cp.? I have seen this type of error in the USSME officials before when using Roman numerals.

Tooz

I am fairly certain that no Italian semv. were present at the fighting at the ponte Primosole. The Germans wouldn't have any Italian equipment 'in German service' in July 1943. That only happened after the events in Sept 1943. I haven't identified any Italian units that participated to the fighting around the bridge. If any semv. were present, they could only be semv. da 47/32. These are quite small are not likely to be seen as SPGs.

What does your source say?

Pista! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

It was the only 4th self-propelled company with 10 self-propelled guns without personnel...the other 4th self-propelled company was 47/32...it's a mistake........

 

[jwsleser]

Excellent! Is the 4 ª cp. with the d.f. «Assietta» the one with the semv. da 75/18 or the IV cp. at «Chiusa Schafani» with the semv. da 75/18?

Graze! Jeff

 

[diciassette2000]

It belonged to the Army units (6th) and was attached to the Chiusa-Sclafani Tactical Group. The Assietta division was not an assault division as the Livorno had been and therefore it was only a normal infantry division with some organic "Italian" adjustments and therefore it never had armored units in its equipment. Most likely it is a spelling error referring to the 4th Artillery Group of 75/27 which was instead organic to the division.

Gruppo Tattico «Chiusa Sclafani»
-10.o reggimento bersaglieri con:
--Comando
--35.o battaglione bersaglieri autoportato con:
---Comando
---1.a compagnia .
---2.a compagnia
---3.a compagnia
--73.o battaglione complementi bersaglieri con:
---Comando
---1.a compagnia
---2.a compagnia
---3.a compagnia
--74.o battaglione complementi bersaglieri con:
---Comando
---1.a compagnia
---2.a compagnia
---3.a compagnia
-10.o squadrone autoblindo (su 13 autoblindo)
-4.a compagnia semoventi da 75/18 (10 semoventi senza personale)
-12.a batteria artiglieria 103.o gruppo 75/27
All the best
Maurizio

 

[jwsleser]

Eccellente! Grazie Maurizio

Pista! Jeff

 

[Kustosz2137]

I wouldn't be surprised if the „IV. company” was actually referring to IV. Btg. Smv. CC of the „Livorno”, just got mistaken. Notice, that the „compagnia" is specifically an infantry unit, which would apply to the IV Btg., while artillery equivalent of the same rank would be called a „batteria”. Additionally, company-level units were numbered with Arabic numerals, while battalion-level ones in Roman.

 

[diciassette2000]

As can be clearly seen from the page of Faldella's book, who was one of the Italian commanders in Sicily in 1943, the two units are different and employed above all in different ways in two different Groupings (Page 412 The landing and the defense of Sicily). The M18/75 were self-propelled guns initially destined for Tunisia to replenish the scarce Italian resources, then remained blocked in Sicily due to the fall of that war area.
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Kustosz2137]

The M18/75 were self-propelled guns initially destined for Tunisia to replenish the scarce Italian resources, then remained blocked in Sicily due to the fall of that war area.

The only Semoventi da 75/18 unit I am aware of in Sicily was the DLX. Gruppo. The book you mentioned states, that the crews of the „IV. Compagnia” were absent, which applies to the DLX. Gruppo, as it's personnel was taken back to mainland Italy and assigned to the newly formed DCI. Gruppo Semoventi da 105/25.
In that case I suppose the „IV. Compagnia” was actually 4ª Batteria of the DLX. Gruppo, although in that case the numbering seems odd.

 

[diciassette2000]

Well....??? It could be but it is strange also because the 560th Self-propelled Group of 75/18 was initially supposed to be assigned to the Centauro division and therefore sent towards Tunisia but then it was definitively assigned to the Piave division which was initially attached to the 4th Army (even if it too had been in Sicily in 1942) furthermore the name company instead of battery would make one think of armoured vehicles destined for a type 43 tank battalion i.e. a tank company and two 75/18 self-propelled guns precisely......even if the 4th company does not fit well with this hypothetical version. However it could be an autonomous company like those sent to the Balkans and still existing in 1943.......well???? mystery???
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Kustosz2137]

However it could be an autonomous company like those sent to the Balkans and still existing in 1943.......well???? mystery???

I think you were right, Maurizio. I checked my sources and indeed, Pignato & Cappellano mentioned formation of 8 independent 75/18 companies in August 1942. According to them, such company was made of 1 Carro Comando and 3 platoons of 3 Semoventi, so 10 vehicles in total, which matches perfectly with the number in your source.
Mehditis listed the 4th Company (among others) as active in 1943, being dependent on 33. Rgt. Ftr. Carrista, so I think that's it.

 

[diciassette2000]

Yes because Mehtidis did nothing other than copy the list of Volume 2 of the work by Cappellano-Pignato "The combat vehicles of the Italian army" which from page 106 to page 110 actually report the same list......however, it remains a mystery.....where were the remaining 9 companies on 8 September 1943...were they still in the depots or had they already been distributed.....????
All the best
Maurizio

 

[Kustosz2137]

Oh, good to know then, thank you. Somehow I never noticed that's the same list...