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Looking for TOE for RSI infantry divisions

S

sultanbev

New Member
Hi all,
am looking for Battalion TOE for RSI infantry regiments down to platoon level. All I have found so far is that they were organised like German battalions, with 3 companies and 1 heavy weapons company, with regimental anti-tank companies using 75/27 M06 in some cases, but I haven't found much else.
Niehorster site shows only what battalions a division had, not even what is inside a battalion:

I see there are books on each division by Paolo Crippa, does anyone know if these contain such detail?

Thanks
Mark
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Mark

I have very little on the RSI forces. A quick scan of Arena's R.S.I. volumes didn't offer anything, but the lack of an index makes searching those books time consuming.

I don't have any of Crippa's books, so can't comment on their quality.

Pista! Jeff
 
S

sultanbev

New Member
Thanks Jeff, I did find the divisions detailed in the Nafziger book on Waffen SS and Other Units book, but how correct it actually is, I wouldn't like to say. The Flames of War wargaming site has some details that contradict Nafziger. Looks like I'll have to splash out on the Crippa books.

Mark
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Good. Check CARL to see if Nafziger OOBs include cites. It is very much hit and miss with him.

RE: Crippa. I am not sure his books will offer much. The few reviews I have been able to find online indicate these books are mainly picture books with little text. I have a few other books by this publisher from other authors and they are mainly pictures with text taken from the internet. No real research and a lot of personal opinions. I believe this publisher is a self-publishing operation. Book quality (the book itself) is not great.

Then again, Crippa might be different/better.

Pista! Jeff
 
S

sultanbev

New Member
The Nafziger book cites no specific references other than Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, National Archives, American Historical Association, Committee for the Study of War Documents, Washington DC, 1960, Microcopy Nos T-78, Rolls 4121, 413, 416, 418 and Nos T-312, Roll 51
but doesn't specifiy which roll refers to the Italians, those references covers all foreign divisions.

Just realised I have a Crippa book already, the one on Italian armour in the Balkans. Think I have the one on Yugoslav armour too, can't put my hand to it just now. I have over 2000 books, sometimes I lose them and end up buying another copy, only to then find the original :rolleyes:
Plenty of photos, with some general battle history, and some unit organisations with tank/AFV totals, but not all. Pics include Slovenian, Partisan, and Croat armour of Italian origin too. Very much like the Images of War series, but with more text detail. Yes, they do lose a bit in translation, I wonder if it's machine translated rather than human?

If I said I'm getting the impression that Italian historians don't seem eager to cover the RSI units in the nerd-pleasing crunching detail that the Germans are, would that be about right? Or is it simply the archival material doesn't exist?

Mark
 
S

sultanbev

New Member
Googling in Italian gets me somewhere;
Found the divisional artillery units here:

Page 211 - L'Italia in Guerra. Il quinto anno 1944 - L’Italia nella 2ª Guerra Mondiale: aspetti e problemi. (1944-1994)

description
musei-difesa-it.translate.goog

1st Division:
1st, 2nd, 3rd Battalions@ 12x 75/13 Skoda M15 pack howitzers
4th Battalion: 12x 100/17

2nd Division:
1st, 2nd Battalions@ 12x 75/13 Skoda M15 pack howitzers
3rd Battalion: 12x 100/17
4th Battalion: 12x 149/19

3rd Division:
1st Battalion: 12x 75/25
2nd Battalion: 12x 100/17
3rd Batttalion: 12x 100/17
4th Battalion: 12x 149/19

4th Division:
1st, 2nd Battalions@ 12x 75/25
3rd Battalion: 12x 100/17
4th Battalion: 12x 105/28

I've just put this here for posterity in case I lose the notes. I presume 75/25 is in fact the 75/27, either M11 or M06.
However Italian Artillery of WW2 by Enrico Finazzer & Ralph Riccio states that the 2nd and 4th divisions also had some 75/18 M35 in their divisional artillery!

Mark
 
D

diciassette2000

Member
In fact, there are no texts that analyze the theoretical TOE of the RSI battalions down to the platoon level... also because, more simply, they were never created. The only ones who put them on paper when the four divisions were formed at Grafenwohr were the Germans, who took a 1944-model Alpine division as the basis for the 4th Monterosa and a 1944-model Jager division for the other three. However, this remained on paper because in the end, both in terms of armament and composition, the four divisions remained unique and furthermore, they changed their true formation several times in the field, especially in terms of artillery and engineering equipment. If you want, however, you can search for those models that are available on the NARA Rolls... perhaps if I find them I can point them out to you here because unfortunately, on this forum, attachments are only compatible if they are very light.
all the best
maurizio
 
jwsleser

jwsleser

Administrator
Staff member
Here is a link for T-78. The Italian material starts at Image 867. RSI until Image 892 when it has material on the 8 Armata.


The attachments are of the 1943 TO&E. There is also a 1944 TO&E, but at a glance it looks the same.

T78-0412-00885.jpg
T78-0412-00886.jpg
T78-0412-00887.jpg
T78-0412-00888.jpg
T78-0412-00889.jpg
 
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